Topics

61

Dermarolling / Microneedling / Thickness of the epidermis and rolling frequency

« on: February 25, 2010, 10:35:33 AM »

>If you are rolling with a 0.5 roller on thin skin that are enable to

  >reach the dermis, is it really correct to roll once a week then? will

  >it not disrupt the collagen production and the whole process? I don't

  >want to roll and roll and don't see any results just because i

  >"destroy" the collagen process, so should I keep roll with one week

  >rest or should I add 2-3 weeks before my new rolling session?

 

 

A dermaroller with 0.5 mm long needles penetrates only about 0.3 mm into the skin. It doesn't really reach the dermis and that's why it heals very quickly and you can roll once a week.  0.5 mm will improve the texture of the epidermis and is very good for product penetration.

 

  The thickness of the epidermis depends on where on the body the skin is. The epidermis on the eyelids is about 0.05 mm thick. The epidermis on the foot soles is about 1.5 mm thick. The face has on average about a 0.1 to 0.3 mm thick epidermis. Males have thicker skin than females.

62

Dermarolling / Microneedling / Simple instructions to treat surgical scars and stretchmarks

« on: February 25, 2010, 09:59:33 AM »

>I have read the instructions how use dermarolling on stretchmarks

  >and surgical scars but I' m a little bit confuse how to do it.





OK, here we go, the clearest I can make it:

   

Skin preparation:

 

        Buy a medium-hard brush and dry-brush your stretch marks twice a week until they get red. Wait one hour (or less if the vit. C doesn't irritate/tingle your skin too much) and apply the vit. C serum that you prepare yourself according to our instructions.

 

      The other days of the week, mix salt or sugar with oil and scrub your stretchmarks until they get red. Wait some time and apply the vit. C that you prepared.

 

  Repeat this for at least 3 weeks.

   

Dermarolling:

 

          Disinfect your skin. Roll your stretchmarks or scars by doing up and down, left and right and diagonally with the roller. You might get some pinpoint bleeding - this is OK and a sign you're at the right depth.  When you finish rolling, take a shower, air-dry and apply Infadolan ointment onto your rolled skin (a tiny bit of Infadolan is enough).

   

  Then wait 5 days.

 

    Then start using a single needle on your stretchmarks and scars. You don't have to do that but it might further improve your stretchmarks or scars.

 

        You first disinfect your skin with alcohol or iodine (which has to be wiped off before rolling). Make very many pricks (= dense pricking) into your stretchmarks or scars with the single needle. Do not go deeper than pinpoint bleeding (about 2 mm deep). Do not prick the surrounding skin, only the stretch marks or scars.



When you finish, apply a tiny smear of Infadolan. You only need a very thin layer. You can prick whenever you have time. You could prick ten to twenty stretchmarks per day. Do not prick the same stretchmark more than once a month.  When you will have pricked all your stretchmarks at least three times, expose them to the sun. Pricking the stretchmarks might trigger melanocyte production and they may - if you are lucky - tan a bit.

Normally, stretch marks do not tan because they have no melanocytes.

 

      Single-needle pricking will crush the hardened collagen bundles that are usually present in stretchmarks and it will also trigger new collagen production. It should improve their appearance.

 

    Continue applying vit. C serum but do not apply it just after pricking because it is acidic. Wait two or three days after the pricking.

 

          It is not realistic to expect that your stretchmarks will disappear. Stretchmarks are deep cracks in the skin and there is currently no method able to completely remove stretch marks (unless they are very shallow but they are usually very deep). You can significantly improve the appearance of the stretch marks with a dermaroller + single needle and make them a bit shallower, narrower and improve their color but you have to be patient. It is not going to happen overnight.

63

Dermarolling / Microneedling / Dermarolling a deep nasolabial fold?

« on: February 21, 2010, 03:38:03 PM »

> I have a very deep nasolabial furrow;

> I won't consider face lift or filler injection; do you think

> dermarolling can diminish the fold; if so, how likely can it be totally

> gone?


First of all, it is completely natural to have a nasolabial fold. Even children have them when they smile and some have them even when they don't smile.

The nasolabial fold forms the border between the cheek and the lip. It's more or less the price we have to pay for smiling.. If you have never smiled in your life, your nasolabial fold would likely be much shallower but it would not be worth it would it?

As we age, our nasolabial folds get more pronounced. One of the most common reasons is the change in the cheek mass and its support, principally the slow migration of cheek fat down the face. Some small additional causes are the atrophy of dermal collagen and increased skin laxity.

Unfortunately, there is no way how a dermaroller could affect the muscle tone, volume and distribution of subcutaneous fat etc. A dermaroller can only affect the skin itself, not the fat and muscles underneath the skin.

      Obviously, if you tighten the facial skin by dermarolling it will likely reduce the nasolabial fold but it doesn't address the main cause – the drop down of fat and other structures under the skin.

     

The deepening of skin folds/lines is caused by:

  -loosening of ligament attachments that attach the skin to the underlying tissues and to the bone

  -loss of skin elasticity

  -loss of fat

  -gravitational forces

A dermaroller can improve only one of them and that is the loss of skin elasticity.               

Another improvement you can try to achieve is to increase the collagen and the skin thickness in the fold. That is not going to fix the actual underlying cause of the fold but it might make the fold a bit less prominent (it is certainly not going to disappear though). A lot of new collagen has to be produced so this is a long-term project and you will need patience.

The advantage of the new collagen growth triggered by needling is that such induced collagen is your own and your body is not going to eliminate it. It will stay. Nevertheless you will continue to age of course and gradually lose "volume" in your face.

Injectable fillers do wonders for an immediate effect but that effect lasts until our body metabolizes it and the filler degrades. That can happen as quickly as in 3 months. Long-lasting fillers can cause granuloma formation.

If you desire a long term, very significant improvement of your NL fold, you would have to address the real cause and have a vertical lifting of the fold such as mid-face lift.

> Also, which needle length should I use?

You should stamp the fold with a 1.5 mm dermastamp with 35 needles. Stamp densely every three weeks. Pinpoint bleeding is the limit. Don't go any deeper. You could use a numbing cream. It might be red for several days so do not do both folds at the same time if you don't want to look like a clown.

Alternatively, use aggressively a one line 1.5 mm dermaroller.

On the second or third day, you can camouflage the redness with makeup (or with a sun block with lots of zinc oxide) but don't use any make up immediately after, and one or two days after microneedling. If you have a weekend off then prick on Friday evening and put on makeup on Monday morning.

 To tighten the facial skin, use a 1 mm regular dermaroller or longer.

64

Dermarolling / Microneedling / How long does the inflammation stage lasts after rolling with long needles?

« on: February 19, 2010, 04:32:31 PM »

> I post on EDS and some of us are wondering how long the micro-inflammation

> stage lasts after a long needle roll.  We know the inflammation is important to

> collagen development so we try to avoid LED's, Emu oil and NSAIDs afterwards.

> We are all wondering how long we need to keep that up.  Do you have any idea?  > Right now, I'm waiting a week and then using the LED as usual.  Some are waiting > a few days and others are avoiding them altogether.  I appreciate any insight

> you can offer.





    When you (for example) prick your skin you mechanically damage some skin cells. Those cells are too damaged to function properly and our body will immediately start removing those cells.



It is the job of our immune system to remove pathogens, damaged cells etc.

The capillaries will dilate and the whole area will get red from increased blood flow full of white blood cells and other cells that will be very busy, removing the damaged tissue and the growth of new cells will be triggered. Blood proteins will flood the area and that will cause swelling, the skin will get warmer than normal and will be painful.

     

    Inflammation is a sign that wound healing is in progress.

Inflammation is caused by our own immune system.  If our immune system didn't "flood" the area and didn't cause inflammation, our wounds would not heal.

          When you roll your skin, you induce inflammation (which is an immune protective response in order to fix the injury) but you should not get infection (bacterial or other contamination of the wound).



  Acute inflammation ceases when the acute injury is fixed and the damaged cells are removed.  It takes a few hours (after dermarolling) and up to a few days (after  deep single needling) but of course it depends on how deep and dense your pricks are etc. Basically, when the signs of inflammation (redness, swelling, increased heat, pain) are completely gone then the inflammation process is completed.

           

It doesn't mean though that you should roll immediately when the inflammation from the previous rolling is gone.  For reasons that are very complex, it is undesirable to have a more or less continuous state of inflammation of the skin. It is certainly not beneficial to your skin.

 

          You have to give your skin time to completely regenerate and give your skin time to complete several stages of collagen production (from collagen III to collagen I etc). The tissue remodelling can take months.

65

Dermarolling / Microneedling / Dermarolling against hyperpigmentation

« on: February 19, 2010, 03:22:06 PM »

> Could I ask your advice on treating hyper pigmentation?. Over a year

> ago I had in grown hairs from epilating which I panicked and tried to  

> treat with in grown hair lotions. I ended up with hyper pigmentation  

> from over use of the lotions. Its over a year ago now and although the  

> in grown hairs have gone the pigmentation has not. Would using your  

> derma roller help to get rid of the pigmentation?. If so how do you  

> suggest I use the derma roller to treat it. I'm really fed up of being  

> ashamed of it and have been to some cosmetic surgery clinics for  

> advice but the prices were totally out of my reach.  

    Hyperpigmentation doesn't have an easy solution.  It looks like you have quite sensitive skin because in-grown hair lotions normally should not cause hyperpigmentation  (I do not know what ingredients your one had though) so I have to be careful with my advice.

Usually, hyperpigmentation is due to locally excessive melanin production.  Melanin is the pigment that determines the color of our skin and when our skin is exposed to the sun, the skin produces more melanin as a protection – melanin absorbs UV.  Uneven/excessive melanin production can also be the result of skin trauma - burning, acne, cuts etc.



     Make a homemade vit. C ( it is a mild skin lightener and an anti-inflammatory) serum according to our dermarolling guidelines . Vit. C is a good antioxidant.   Continue using it.

 

People who do not have sensitive skin can try to dry shave the pigmented skin. Just use a new disposable shaver and shave the pigmented skin. The skin should be dry. Be very careful not to cut yourself.

        Roll with a 0.2 or 0.5 mm roller and use some skin lightening cream - for example Retinoic acid (start with very low percentage or dilute it and gradually increase. Do not  apply it immediately after rolling but wait one hour. Later you can  gradually shorten the waiting time between the application  and rolling.

If the pigmentation is too deep for short-needled rollers, use a 1.0 dermaroller (every 10-14 days). You will see if the pigmentation gets better.

            If your hyperpigmented spots are localized, you can make dense pricks into the pigmented spots (not to the surrounding skin) with our custom made single needle. The needle is very thin with a long taper and pricking the pigmented spots should result in intense peeling and new collagen production. You don't have to prick deep because pigmentation does not occur in deep skin layers.

By all means   - whatever method(s) you use, do a test patch first before you do larger areas. Your skin seems to be sensitive and you must first find out how your skin will react and how it will heal.



A good overview of skin lightening and depigmenting agents:

https://http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1068091-overview#aw2aab6b4

https://http://www.pgdermatology.com/downloads/documents/Current_Topical_Ingredients_for_Treating_Hyperpigmentation.pdf

         0.5 mm roller is very good for pigmentation because  this kind of pigmentation is usually not very deep. You should roll two or three times a week with 0.5 mm and protect your skin from the sun as much as you can. Under no circumstance should you go outside

  in the sun immediately after rolling. Roll before going to bed and apply a high factor sunscreen in the morning.  We have some customers who improved their pigmentation even with a 0.2 mm roller. This took about 6 months.

     The problem with pigmentation is that it is often caused by excessive melanin deposits and every time you expose it to the sun, the pigmentation will re-appear or get worse. Skin produces melanin as a protection when exposed to the UV (melanin absorbs UV). When there is locally uneven concentration of melanin, you end up with pigmentation. Uneven melanin concentration is frequently a result of injury, acne, inflammation etc.Freckles are also concentrated melanin spots.

         



Also, when you use a sunscreen (I hope you do), use one that has only physical blockers and no chemical blockers.

Physical ones reflect UV whereas chemical ones absorb UV and convert it to heat, which can make melasma and other pigmentation worse.

To read about the difference between physical and chemical filters, read this:

https://http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/Sun-protection-with-dermarolling    

 

Pharmacies often sell a sunscreen with physical filters for people who are allergic to chemical filters.  

 

66

Dermarolling / Microneedling / Can small, shallow stretchmarks disappear entirely with dermarolling and single-needling?

« on: February 18, 2010, 04:39:34 PM »

> What I have understood stretch mark removal is not completely possible,

  > but I saw in the thread "single needling and collagen production" that you

  > wrote that if the stretch marks are very shallow they maybe could

  > entirely disappear.

  > Do you mean 100% removal or just so they aren't noticable at all?

  > I have some very shallow and small stretch marks, and I really mean small

  > ones... I could not see how so small marks not could disappear

  > completely if you are producing enough collagen.

     

  It entirely depends on how deep your stretchmarks are. Stretchmarks are usually very deep cracks in the skin that go through the entire epidermis and most of the dermis.  The body repaired the cracks with scar tissue. Scar tissue is not unhealthy but it is a cosmetic problem.



  Scars typically contain a lot of collagen but that collagen is in the form of a scar and that scar tissue is usually atrophic (indented). Your basic technique should be to crush/abrade the hardened scar collagen bundles in the stretchmarks with this single needle of ours and that should make your stretchmarks look better. It will also trigger new collagen production and hopefully (and usually) some of this new collagen will be more like normal skin.



  I have never seen a deep stretchmark disappear but you have a very good chance (lots of our customers achieved this!) that the stretchmarks will look better.

  Needling should eventually make the stretchmarks less indented as well because needling will trigger the growth of new tissue. It is a very slow process and you will need many needling sessions to achieve it. Do not lose hope/faith/determination! This is not voodoo, micro-needling is a scientifically proven method - but if you want to be pretty, you have to suffer (and be patient).



  If your stretch marks are very shallow (which is rare, unfortunately) then after repeated needling you may have "abraded" the entire scar which will then be be replaced or at least partially replaced with normal skin. But - noone can guarantee this. Neither can I predict how much of the scar tissue will be replaced by normal tissue, if at all. Some of our customers achieved success and some haven't. The right technique is important, as well as persistence. Do not fall for the temptation to overdo it either. There are no shortcuts. The skin needs time, a lot of time, to properly regenerate.



  You should dry brush your stretchmarks for several weeks before you start needling and apply vit. C serum according to our dermarolling instructions:

 

  https://http://dermaroller.owndoc.com/dermaroller-instructions.pdf

67

Dermarolling / Microneedling / Dermarolling vs. Mesolift and nappage technique

« on: February 17, 2010, 07:29:59 AM »

> How does dermarolling compare with the Mesolift and the

> "nappage" technique that is so fashionable over here in France?



Mesolift is a method of injecting vitamins such as Hyaluronic acid or other substances into the skin and those injections reach a depth of 1 mm into the skin.

Nappage is a form of microneedling where the skin is gently pricked, delivering droplets of vitamins, minerals and anti-oxidants into the skin. It's essentially the same as "mesolifting".

If you roll your skin with a 0.2, 0.25 or 0.5 mm roller and apply some skin care products, they will be able to penetrate very deeply into your skin and you can achieve the same effects as a mesolift. It depends on the products that you use.  I cannot comment on the efficacy of all the skin care products out there.  Some people find certain products useful and others don't.  Everybody swears by something else. It's very difficult to make an objective judgment. You basically have to try and find what works with your skin.

I can give you some suggestions but without guarantee:

• Buy a cream with Hyaluronic acid (stretchmark creams often contain it) and roll it into your face or body with a 0.2, 0.25 or 0.5 mm dermaroller.
  
  


• Buy capsules of vit. E, prick the capsule and use it on your skin after rolling.
  
  


• Use (our) homemade vit. C serum frequently.
  
  


• Use our vit. A ointment after rolling or if that is too greasy for you, buy a vit. A cream.
  
  


• Buy Panthenol spray (vit. B5) or cream and use it occasionally on your skin (and hair).

You don't have to use all these products simultaneously or every day. Just apply one of these products when you are in the mood, such as every two to three days.

And every now and then, gently dry brush your skin.

68

Dermarolling / Microneedling / Ingredients to avoid when making your own dermarolling skin serum

« on: February 17, 2010, 07:22:34 AM »

> If I were to make my own serum to be applied before rolling, what

> ingredients must be avoided ( irritant or quiet simply dangerous?) I've

> tried a find a list  of no-no's, but to no avail.



If you want to make your own skin treatment solution and use third-party ingredients, those companies should make sure that they sell only well-tested ones (hopefully not on the eyes of bunny rabbits..)

There are hundreds of possible ingredients and I cannot comment on their efficacy or safety.

It is the job of accredited laboratories to test these products and it is the responsibility of the seller to sell tested products only. I am sorry I can't be more specific.

But be careful with homemade products. Since they normally do not contain preservatives and antioxidants they can easily get rancid or worse: Bacterially contaminated.

The reason why we recommend making vit. C serum at home is because vit. C oxidizes easily in a watery solution and it is hard to make a (likely expensive) cream with a high percentage of stable vit. C.  That's why you should make fresh, cheap vit. C serum yourself.

69

Dermarolling / Microneedling / Dermarolling against sagging skin

« on: February 17, 2010, 07:14:19 AM »

> I understand dermarrolling, even with 0.2mm needles, will increase skin

> plumpness, but can it have an effect on sagging as well?

Not by itself. You need longer needles to address skin sagging. Nevertheless, certain skin care products can help with skin elasticity and texture. At least that's what they claim..

If you have significantly sagging skin, not even dermarolling with long needles can fix it.

In that case you'd need a face-lift. Repeated rolling can improve lost skin elasticity somewhat but it cannot fix significantly sagging skin due to aging or the presence of excessive skin.

70

Dermarolling / Microneedling / Avoiding redness with shallow dermarolling for product penetration

« on: February 17, 2010, 07:09:46 AM »

> I work 6 days a week, have rather sensitive skin, and will be

  > dermarolling for product penetration mostly. Is there a rolling method

  > that I can use so as to avoid redness or marks ?( I'm a teacher, and

  > can easily imagine the students' comments if I come in one morning

  > with a ruby red face.....)

 

     

I see that you ordered the 0.2 mm and 0.5 mm dermaroller.

  There should be no long-term redness or no redness at all when rolling with such short needles. If your skin reddens with short needles, it should disappear within hours.

 

Roll with 0.2 mm, in the evening before your day off and apply the skin care products of your choice.  You will see how you look in the morning. It should be fine.  I have never heard of anybody complaining about prevailing redness with a 0.2/0.25 mm or 0.5 mm dermaroller.  

  You can get red from the applied products though, such as:



Acidic products:

 

  Ascorbic acid (vit. C),

 

  Retinoic acid (form of vit. A),

 

  Chemical peels:

 

  Alpha hydroxy acids (glycolic acid, lactic acid)

 

  Beta hydroxy acids (salicylic acid)

 

  etc.

     

  Some creams contain those acids but the amount of acid in them is usually negligible and they should not make your skin red.

        If your skin is sensitive, do not apply acidic products immediately after rolling.  Do not apply the homemade vit. C serum after rolling.  Apply it some hours or one hour before rolling. Make your vit. C less concentrated and if your skin copes with it without reddening, add more vit. C into the serum.

 

              Our Infadolan regenerative ointment contains a form of vit A that is more "friendly" to the rolled skin - it is in the form of Retinol acetate which is slowly converted in your skin into Retinoic acid.  Our vit. A and D ointment is oily (both vit. A and D are fat soluble vitamins) but very little is needed. You can apply a little bit it after rolling and spread it well.

71

Dermarolling / Microneedling / We have a 1.5 mm NARROW dermaroller (3-liner) now

« on: February 14, 2010, 03:25:21 PM »

After popular request, we added to our assortment the 1.5 mm narrow roller with only three lines of needles, to deep-treat the skin above the upper lip or any other narrow skin area that you'd like to target, such as individual stretchmarks.

With this roller you can make narrower bands of pricks, and it is easier to make the needles penetrate.

The roller by itself is here:

1.5 mm NARROW dermaroller

72

Dermarolling / Microneedling / Our dermarollers and single needles are Gamma-sterilized and sterilely packaged

« on: February 11, 2010, 11:07:15 AM »

This should be obvious (because criminally negligent if it wouldn't be):

• Our rollers and their plastic boxes are gamma-radiation sterilized and come in a hermetically sealed bag, inside a cardboard box. The rollers are manufactured in compliance with ISO13485, the requirements standard for the design and manufacture of medical devices.
  
  


• Our single needles are also gamma-sterilized, individually packed and hermetically sealed and come with an expiry date.

73

Dermarolling / Microneedling / Can dermarolling prevent future stretchmarks?

« on: February 08, 2010, 05:39:21 PM »

>Can rolling reduce the likelihood of getting any further stretchmarks in

>the future ie in pregnanay or is it a case of once you get stretchmarks no  

>matter what you are prone to getting more?  





    The exact underlying cause of stretchmarks is not fully known. Most pregnant women get them but some don't and nobody seems to know why. There likely is a strong hormonal factor.

     The preventative effect of a dermaroller in stretchmark formation has not yet been studied, AFAIK.

          You can try supplying vit. C to your skin and dry massage it and use skin creams that you think might be useful (I cannot comment on the efficacy of any creams) but nothing is known to be able to guarantee a stretchmark-free pregnancy. There currently is no known method to prevent stretchmarks formation in pregnancy.

You might want to read this article:

Predicting stretch marks  

  “A researcher from the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto says he has found a way to predict years in advance whether a woman will develop stretch marks after giving birth, and is working on promising "pre-emptive" remedies for the unsightly wrinkles.”

  https://http://www.canada.com/topics/lifestyle/parenting/story.html?id=a8e334c0-d31f-4ecb-9fcd-bf078fe16058&k=25615

 



 

74

Dermarolling / Microneedling / Single-needling stretchmarks and collagen production

« on: February 08, 2010, 05:33:15 PM »

>With repeated rolling and the production of new collagen,can the skin  

  >ever return to its pre-stretchmark stage in terms of having just as

  >much  collagen as it once did?

The "stretchmarked" skin is usually thinned both in the Epidermis and the Dermis (skin layers).

 

  Regular dermarolling should thicken the skin and make the stretchmarks less indented.

      Stretchmarks usually have abundant collagen in them but that Collagen is in the form of a scar - the Collagen layout is different from that in normal skin and the Elastin fibers are abnormal as well.

        Pricking the stretchmarks densely with a single needle will crush the hardened Collagen bundles and that should smoothe the texture of the stretchmarks and make them less bright and shiny.  But the white scar will not disappear.

     

            Nevertheless, if you are lucky, then the repeated micro injuries caused by pricking the skin can cause the stretchmarks to heal with a better collagen layout, a fiber configuration that is a little more normal-skin-like. It might also trigger Melanocyte production and that will enable the stretchmarks to tan or partially tan. All this is highly individual - no guarantees.



          If your stretchmarks are very shallow (unfortunately, they are often deep), they might even disappear entirely but so far, no method can totally remove deep stretch marks - only improve them.

75

Dermarolling / Microneedling / Why don't you sell a 3 mm roller?

« on: February 08, 2010, 07:29:03 AM »

We don't sell longer needle lengths than 1.5 mm because they carry a risk of infection or nerve injury, especially if larger areas are rolled. And if even one needle is bent, serious skin damage and perhaps scarring will result. Bent needles are a significant risk with such long needles.



Our opinion is that 3 mm deep rolling should be only done by medical professionals.

 

  The necessity of rolling so deeply (with the exception of certain scars) is controversial as well.