I just did the dermaroller for the first time

[Anna]

I guess I expected the peeling to be more severe than it was but needless to say I'm glad it wasn't. It just looks like normal dry skin very small flakes as if you spent a whole day outside I'm the cold. Is that normal type of peeling or was it supposed to be more severe?

[SarahVaughter]

Yes it is normal. Some people peel more, some less. A dermaroller makes lots of micro-holes that heal very quickly. The skin in the micro-holes is being renewed and the debris is expelled.

Unlike a deep acid peel, a dermaroller doesn't remove entire layers of skin (removing entire layers makes the skin prone to infection, uneven pigmentation or scarring and it takes a long time to heal).

With a dermaroller, you achieve deep renewal but the micro-holes are surrounded by untouched skin, which makes it much safer and quicker to heal. Therefore you can go much deeper with a dermaroller than with acid peels.

[Anna]

that's great thanks

[Anna]

it's been about a month no significant changes to my acne scars but I did  notice a wrinkle on my forehead has gotten a little smoother. I will continue to do this monthly and post any changes

[kakalakingma]

Hi Anna, how is progress at the moment? any improvements in terms wrinkles, fine lines, elasticity, pigmentation, firmness, etc? Scar reduction?

[Anna]

nothing really yet my forehead wrinkle smoothed out a little but as far as the scars I can't tell any significant changes right now I'm about to do my roll again for the 2nd time and will continue once a month for the next 6 monnths we'll see I'm hopeful it will work.

[kakalakingma]

I am crossing my fingers it will work for you. I am starting my first session next Friday (hopefully). How is your skin care routine going? Are you using exfoliants, retnoid, GHK-Cu, Vitamin C and all that jazz? How are you going to determine result? Progress pictures? You are rolling with 1.5mm, correct?

Good luck,

PS: I remember Sarah says somewhere that skin remodelling in terms of Collagen III conversion to Collagen I phase takes a long time... months? I need to find that again.

[Update: I found the info Sarah wrote on collagen phase:

"Collagen production is a very slow and long process. There are several complex, intermediary stages in collagen production. Collagen formation goes though long intermediate phases from Collagen III and finally Collagen I. When you roll your skin with any needles that reach the dermis, collagen production can certainly not be completed in three days. It hardly even has started after three days. Its actually not even completed in five weeks but at least the first stages are completed. You should not roll before the skin is completely healed from the previous rolling. If you roll every three days with long needles (such as 1.5 mm), your skin will be in a state of permanent inflammation and swelling. It will look great because your wrinkles will be less visible due to that swelling but don't confuse this effect with permanent results!

Its a deceiving, short-term "trick" and being in a permanent state of inflammation will damage your skin in the long term.

Permanent inflammation is not a good idea at all. There is no reason to disturb the formation of new collagen that is not even remotely completed by pricking the skin again and again before the damage of the previous rolling is healed and collagen production completed. You can roll several times a week with short needles (0.2 or 0.25)." (LINK)

In another thread, I asked Sarah a question relating to this topic:

"I have read somewhere that the conversion from Collagen III to Collagen I takes months to complete. I do not understand the benefit and logic of rolling even 5-6 weeks after the first session. You said in one of your post that at least the first stages of collagen production is complete, but pricking the skin with a 1.5-mm again will cause trauma to the same area, again, so wouldn’t it destroy the collagen III “in progress” that have finish just the first few stages?

Wound healing has several phases: Hemostasis + inflammation, then proliferation/reconstruction and finally maturation/remodeling.

In the maturation stage, the collagen is replaced by a stronger form of collagen and its pattern is rearranged, the wound continues to contract.

The formation of new collagen is not localized to the exact area of the pricks. It's a consequence of a complex would healing cascade. And the pricks channels have zero diameter, weeks after a rolling session. So the chance of hitting those exact same spots is very low, in spite of the fact that you have quite a high needling density.

I have to say that there is at least one professional microneedling practitioner that disagrees with having such long breaks. She claims that the collagen formation process works differently than is described in professional literature. See, this is a complex subject, even for professionals." (
So according from what Sarah states, derma roller users needs to be patients as one or even two sessions might not be enough. Plus, waiting a month for dramatic scar reduction is most likely NOT gonna happen.. but i am going speculate that a few people get quicker and better results than others depending on rolling frequency and skin care maintenance.

[Anna]

thank you I hope it will work too I'm tired of thinking about my skin. All I use now is say yes to tomatoes facial cleanser and skin organics vanilla acai lotion nothing else. For a while I was using lumene vitamin c capsules but ran out and haven't bought anymore those make your skin feel velvety to the touch but I'm speculating because it has silicones in the product and not the actual vitamin itself, anyway I like it for red marks so I'm gonna probably start to use that again.

[Anna]

and I know not to expect any miracles right now I remember Sarah said somewhere it will take at least 10 months to see anything and it's been a month and a half so I'm gonna harbor some patience keep rolling once a month and just wait and see. And yes I do have some pics I took before rolling so that's how I know about any progress I just haven't posted them up.

[kakalakingma]

Anna;1164 wrote: thank you I hope it will work too I'm tired of thinking about my skin. All I use now is say yes to tomatoes facial cleanser and skin organics vanilla acai lotion nothing else. For a while I was using lumene vitamin c capsules but ran out and haven't bought anymore those make your skin feel velvety to the touch but I'm speculating because it has silicones in the product and not the actual vitamin itself, anyway I like it for red marks so I'm gonna probably start to use that again.

Hi Anna,

     I have seen those Vitamin C capsules at my local CVS store! lololol. I do think that you get the skin smoothnes due to the blend of silicones but they gone after every wash (the silicones). I also wonder what the pH of the product is because ascorbic acid does not get asbsorbed properly without a pH of 3.5 or lower according to research. Another thing is how much Vitamin C is in the product. If the product has work for you then you should continue to use it, but I want you consider this: how about make your own vitamin C serum, this way, you will know the amount for yourself and the pH. Now about the Skin Organics lotion, I think it is a nice emollient product with a nice blend of ingredients such as Matrixyl, DMAE, and antioxidants (vitamin A & E and green tea), etc. I wonder how much of Matrixyl and DMAE is in the product.

Wanna read more on Matrixyl and DMAE? These articles are not research articles, kind of like essays that are consumer friendly... kind of.

[Update: I forgot to mention if you venture for DIY vitamin C solution, you save money. And for those you cannot tolerate L-ascorbic acid, then it is better to buy ready made non acidic and stabilized vitamin C derivative(s).]

[kakalakingma]

Anna;1165 wrote: and I know not to expect any miracles right now I remember Sarah said somewhere it will take at least 10 months to see anything and it's been a month and a half so I'm gonna harbor some patience keep rolling once a month and just wait and see. And yes I do have some pics I took before rolling so that's how I know about any progress I just haven't posted them up.

 

Anna, I think you should really consider incorporating diligently using an effective Vitamin C product AND another ingredient that is known for cell regeneration and/or collagen production, ethier Vitamin A retinoid or retinol OR copper peptide GHK-Cu. These ingredients incoprorated into your regimen should help faciliate the skin remodelling process (no gaurantee, but seems like well-researched approach, right?). Just think about it. I am not aware of any GHK-Cu at CVS or Walgreens or whatever. But for sure retinol products are readily available, but tretinoin is a at the doc's office or you can get the gel version in Sarah's store. Make sure you can tolerate 0.05% tretinoin. If you cannot, it is better to start with less active Vitamin A derivatives.

[Anna]

thank you for that I value your opinion you obviously know your stuff! the skin organics version is probably very good I just can't bring myslef up to spend 70$ on a tiny little bottle, and I really have to be careful of what I put on my skin cause I'm very very sensitive and the lumene brand doesn't irritate my skin at all soo that's why I like that one I do wonder though how much or what percentage of vitamin c is in there.

[Anna]

have you ever tried anything from say yes to tomatoes? I know the name is silly their first line is say yes to carrots but this one is geared towards breakouts and I'm really liking the cleanser it leaves my skin polished and doesn't irritate. I think I'm gonna try their mosturizer from the tomatoes line too. I really would like to know what you think of them. Thanks

[kakalakingma]

Anna;1177 wrote: have you ever tried anything from say yes to tomatoes? I know the name is silly their first line is say yes to carrots but this one is geared towards breakouts and I'm really liking the cleanser it leaves my skin polished and doesn't irritate. I think I'm gonna try their mosturizer from the tomatoes line too. I really would like to know what you think of them. Thanks

 

Hi Anna,

    I saw your post early in the day but I was at school and I didn't have enough time to post up my reply and find things to add.

    Yes, I have heard of “Yes To” brand and its sub-brands, but I have never tried any of the products. I see the products all the time at my local drugstores lololol. I will say this: if the cleanser works for you, you should continue to use it. But it is interesting to note that there are fragrant ingredients and fragrance in the cleanser AND the moisturizer, which is odd because you say you have “very very sensitive” skin. Plus, these ingredients are not at the very bottom of the list, either. Perhaps, your skin sensitivity to skin care ingredients is of a small range. In other words, maybe you are sensitive to only a few particular ingredients that happen to be prominent in many brands (e.g, denatured alcohol & fragrance), thus, giving you the impression that you are sensitive to many (assuming you have tried many products and they give you adverse reaction such as redness, stinging, etc). There are many types of fragrance compounds out there, but I guess you can cross out the ones found in Yes To Tomatoes because they have not cause any trouble to your skin. Are you sure you are as sensitive as you say? Do you know any particular ingredients you (subjectively) deem as problematic to your skin? This is can tough to determine accurately because each skin care products have dozens of ingredients in them. I think your skin is more resistance than you say it is sensitive. Buuut, the best way to know really, if you are very unsure, is go to a trusted broad certified dermatologist and let him or her analyzed your skin accurately and professionally.

     If you trust Paula Begoun and her work, then you should read her reviews on these two products, which I have pasted below from Beautypedia.com. Warning: Paula sometimes to make snide and assertive remarks about the products of the company, so read at your own discretion. I am just doing the quoting:

“Review: It seems that the folks behind the Yes To products think that watermelon extract is the key to removing excess oil and impurities from skin, which means that all other cleansers (including the other Yes To cleansers) got it wrong. It shouldn’t come as a shock to you to learn that watermelon extract has no special benefit for oily or dirty skin. Try cleansing your face with a big slice of pure watermelon and see how it feels—you won’t ever do it again.

Beyond the foolish claims (the same ones endlessly bandied about in the natural products sector of the cosmetics industry), this is a basic cleanser for normal to dry skin. The mélange of plant oils isn’t going to please those with combination, oily, or acne-prone skin, while the fragrance and fragrant plants are completely wrong for sensitive skin. This cleanser does a decent job of removing makeup, but for complete removal you may need a washcloth."

Yes To Tomatoes Clear Skin Daily Clarifying Cleanser

Aqua (Water), Sodium Coceth Sulfate, Solanum Lycopersicum (Tomatoes) Extract*, Olea Europaea (Olive) Leaf Extract*, Aspalathus Genus (Red Tea) Extract, Citrullus Vulgaris (Watermelon) Extract, Lauryl Glucoside, Coco Glucoside, Maris Aqua (Dead Sea Water), Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Extract*, Punica Granatum (Pomegranate Peel) Extract*, Aloe Barbadensis (Aloe Vera Leaf) Extract*, Capsicum Annuum (Red Pepper) Extract*, Parfum (Fragrance), Magnesium Chloride, Maris Limus (Silt) Extract, Ricinus Communis (Castor) Oil, Citric Acid, Benzyl Alcohol, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil*, Olea Europaea (Olive) Oil*, Calendula Officinalis Oil*, Niacin*, Dunaliella Salina Extract, Spirulina Maxima Extract*, Rhodella Reticulata Extract, Ginkgo Biloba Extract*, Camelia Sinensis (Green Tea) Extract*, Dehydroacetic Acid. * Certified Organic Ingredient

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"Review: Irritating rosemary extract is the second ingredient in this allegedly tranquil moisturizer. Although most of the other ingredients in this cleansing lotion (which are completely inappropriate for oily skin) are innocuous and not particularly helpful for any skin type, it’s the amount of rosemary extract and its irritant potential that’s hard to ignore."

Yes To Tomatoes Daily Balancing Moisturizer

Aqua (Water), Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Extract*, Isopropyl Palmitate, Aloe Barbadensis (Aloe Vera) Gel*, Chamomilla Recutita (Camomile) Extract*, Aspalathus Genus (Red Tea) Extract*, Cetyl Alcohol*, Solanum Lycopersicum (Tomatoes) Extract*, Maris Aqua (Dead Sea Water), Propolis Cera Extract*, Citrullus Vulgaris (Watermelon) Extract*, Capsicum Annuum (Red Pepper) Extract*, Maris Limus (Silt) Extract, Algae (Spirulina, Rhodella, Dunaliella) *, Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis (Sweet Almond) Oil*, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Oil*, Olea Europaea (Olive) Oil*, Calendula Officinalis Oil*, Ginkgo Biloba Leaf Extract*, Niacin*, Olea Europaea (Olive) Leaf Extract*, Benzyl Alcohol, Parfum (Fragrance), Dehydroacetic Acid, Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E) *. Certified Organic Ingredient

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So it is clear that Paula has a problem with Rosemary extract and the fragrant and fragrance components of the products. Apparently she base her reviews on published research that is provided on her website. I shall provide the links below to the specific ingredient sections (not studies, but I can find them if you want me to)

Rosemary extract: LINK

Fragrance: LINK

Volatile Oil: LINK

By the way, from January to February, Beautypedia.com is open for public viewing. So… if you have any other products you would like to see reviewed based on Paula Begoun’s knowledge of the research she has found, then you should check the website out! (www.beautypedia.com).

See you next time!

[Update: Just to be safe, there is this questionaire that you can take to determine your skin type accurately ---> LINK. This skin type topology is created by Dr. Leslie Baumann and it has been around for a while. My skin type is OSPW. I have her book too, so if you figure out your skin type, I can provide you with the list of ingredient you should avoid according to the doc. remember you have to answer the question honestly if you want to know the right skin type.]

[Update 2: videos on sensitive skin

What is Sensitive Skin

[video=youtube;Gza7GB6dKOk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gza7GB6dKOk[/video]

Myth: Hypoallergenic Labels

[video=youtube;VO9oqqgl8YA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO9oqqgl8YA[/video]

How To Care For Sensitive Skin

https://http://www.cosmeticscop.com/videos/sensitive-skin.html

Skin Care Advice : About Skin Care Products for Sensitive Skin

[video=youtube;1R8MWJ5w6js]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R8MWJ5w6js[/video]

]

[kakalakingma]

From what I have learned and researched about sensitive skin, I suspect your skin sensitivity can be, in part, due to a damaged skin  barrier; that is, you are losing essential skin-identical ingredients. According to Paula Begoun:

"The term “skin-identical ingredients” or "skin-repairing ingredients" refers to the substances between skin cells (technically referred to as the intercellular matrix) that keep skin cells connected and help maintain skin’s fundamental external structure. Think of your skin as consisting of bricks, with the mortar being the material that holds these bricks together. Skin cells are the bricks, and the mortar (cement) between them is made up of skin-identical ingredients. An intact, stable, healthy, and strong mortar structure is what allows skin to look smooth, soft, moist, supple, and young.

Unfortunately, the mortar, especially in the external barrier of our skin, is easily compromised by sun damage (that’s the major culprit), irritation, overcleansing, overscrubbing, dry climate, air conditioning, indoor heaters, skin disorders, and on and on. When the skin’s mortar (the intercellular matrix) breaks down, water loss, flakiness, and inflexible, stiff, uncomfortable-feeling skin is the result. It is of vital importance for all skin types to maintain or restore the skin’s mortar (intercellular matrix) to help skin fight off environmental stresses and most certainly look younger.

These substances that keep skin intact are what I refer to as skin-identical ingredients. Antioxidants are one group of skin-identical ingredients but skin-identical ingredients also encompass an additional assortment of substances, such as ceramides, lecithin, glycerin, polysaccharides, hyaluronic acid, sodium hyaluronate, sodium PCA, amino acids, cholesterol, glycerol, phospholipids, glycosphingolipids, glycosaminoglycans, glycerides, fatty acids, and many, many more. All of these give skin what it needs to keep skin cells together. Just adding water alone can do nothing if the intercellular matrix is damaged. When a moisturizer contains a combination of these, it can help reinforce the skin’s natural ability to function normally, improve skin’s texture, fight environmental stress (sun, pollution, and more), and, along with antioxidants and cell-communicating ingredients, eliminate dry skin with regular use." (LINK)

More info? DERMAdoctor has an article relating to skin barrier and she makes product suggestions: LINK to Ceramide Barrier Repair article.

sooo... if you really really really have sensitive skin you should definitely look for skin identical ingredients in your leave-on products.

I need to go to swimming class Byeyeyeyeyeyey