Messages

1816

Dermarolling / Microneedling / pelleve

« on: July 20, 2010, 05:48:20 AM »

I would recommend you to use a 0.5 mm roller for intensive pretreatment with vit. C before your radiofrequency treatments. Rolling will ensure high

  penetration of vit. C which can greatly support the outcome of your radiofrequency treatment, since collagen synthesis needs vit. C.

   

Roll your skin every second day and immediately apply the vit. C serum. If it stings too much, add more water to it. It will always sting a bit because it is acidic.      

  Stop rolling 2 days before the treatment but continue with the application of vit. C.

   

  A 0.20 mm roller is totally sufficient for product penetration but 0.5 can also be used if you do not have a shorter one. Do not put too much pressure on it in that case.

   

  It is said that it can take four to eight weeks to see the results from radiofrequency treatment such as Pelleve.

   

  Continue applying vit. C several times a week after your treatment. Do not use your roller for about ten days after the radiofrequency treatment. If you use a roller longer than 0.5 mm, wait even longer. Shorter needles than 0.5 can be used after about five days after your treatment.

1817

Dermarolling / Microneedling / Dark circles under eyes, red blotches, broken capillaries

« on: July 16, 2010, 02:28:40 PM »

In Russia, they remove dark circles under the eyes by Photoshopping them :-)

 

                     

Attached files

1818

Dermarolling / Microneedling / The perfect dermaroller/ skin care plan?

« on: July 15, 2010, 04:18:33 PM »

1, first off just to underunderstand you fully, your saying i can use a roller up to 0.25 mm roller in lengh for product penetration 3x a week, its ok to do this even though every 6-8 weeks im rolling with 1.5 mm? these rollers can be used in conjunction without negative effects correct?

 

Yes.

  BTW, Vit. C doesn’t penetrate the skin easily so it would be useful to apply some after rolling with a 0.25 mm dermaroller.

 2, concerning the vit c, ive read that it has to be of a certain concentration/strengh in order to have any chance of penetrating ther skin, somewhere around 13 or 15% i think (I cant remember exactly) so my question yes the vit c always stings me when i put it on,(maybe cause i use retin a regulary!) but anyway wouldnt this mean i cant dilute it as it would fail to penetrate the skin barrier?

    This is actually a very complex problem.  Our skin is designed to protect us and it does this very well. That’s why almost nothing gets through the skin. Vit. C doesn’t penetrate the skin easily. Vit.C starts to penetrate the skin much better at a very low pH – below 3.5. The problem is that our skin is colonized by microflora that basically protects our skin from colonization of harmful bacteria, fungus etc.  The effects of frequent application of a product with a very low pH on the skin are not known and it might disturb the natural colonization of microflora and the skin balance. Extremes are usually not advisable. Just like it is not recommended to wash too often with highly alkaline soaps it is probably not good to use highly acidic products too often in order not to destroy the normal skin pH which is complexly maintained and kept by all kinds of skin mechanisms. The pH of the skin is usually between 4.5 – 6. It varies with age and part of the body.

     The concentration of vit. C should be at least 5 percent and max. 20%. It is true that high concentrations of applied vit. C produce higher skin concentrations, nevertheless if high concentrations irritate your skin, it is better to use lower ones. More is not always better in that case.

Some people have no problem applying vit. C after rolling with 0.25 mm and some cannot handle it due to stinging. Rolling greatly enhances vit. C penetration just like it enhances the penetration of anything by temporarily making micro-holes in otherwise almost impenetrable epidermis.



Even low concentrations of vit. C will sting because it is still acidic. But it should be bearable.

   Update

I just found out that the pH of vit. C in water solution is very low:

 

A 5% solution in water has a pH of 2.2 to 2.5:  

  https://http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/pharm/ascorbic.htm

 

pH in water:  pH 2.4 - 2.8 (2% aqueous):

  https://http://www.inchem.org/documents/sids/sids/50817.html

 

  This is good news for its skin absorption. A pH below 3.5 is best for skin penetration (without dermarolling).

 

  Just don't apply vit. C to the skin several times a day, such as not to disturb the pH balance of the skin. Regular application every other day is enough. The half-life of vit. C in the skin is about four days.  (The amount of vit. C present in the skin will half every four 4 days.)

 

3, Ive read that vit c and retin a can cancell each other out so to speak, so its best to space these 2 products apart (around 12 hours) maybe useing the retin a in the night (as uv breaks it down)wash it off in the moring and apply vit c in the moring also! have you any take on this?.      

     I haven’t heard about them cancelling each other (I will look into it) but I know that vit. C doesn’t penetrate easily and as a water soluble vitamin, it cannot penetrate any fats. That’s why it should be put on “bare” skin and it should not be mixed with anything else except water. Vit. A is fat soluble.

 

 

4, Ive read alot about positive and negative effects of dr pickarts copper peptide! people are experiencing what they re calling 'the uglies' basically where the skin has a negative effect to the peptide! I have some resevations about useing the mask you sell because its quite highly concentrated, any thoughts on this?  

     Use it once without dermarolling to give it a try. I did that as well. I got some very mild redness on my forehead that disappeared very quickly and I must say that my skin was nice and tight after the mask. I have applied the mask already twice after quite aggressive 1.5 mm dermarolling and I experienced no problems myself. Neither has any customer reported negative experiences so far. That doesn’t mean they can't happen of course.  Some people get reactions to Retinoids and some to copper peptides as well.

 

You can also open the mask's sachet, don't take the mask out, take out just some liquids with a clean finger (it’s quite watery) and apply it on part of your skin to see what happens. Close the sachets with paper clips and put them in the fridge. Then you can use the rest later.

 

When I use a copper peptide mask, there is always some liquid left in the sachet. I close it with paper clips, put it in the fringe and use the remaining liquids later.

 

5, youll be glad to know this is my final question, concerning daily skin care what do you think of this regime,

NIGHT- 1, cleanse 2, tone (wait half an hour)  3, apply retin a (wait half an hour)  4, apply a moisturiser (latley ive been useing your infadolin would you regard this a moisturiser as such)  MORNING- 1, wash of retin a, 2, Apply vit c (wait half an hour) 3, Moisturise  

     That is indeed a good routine.

Infadolan is a very good moisturizer because it locks the water into the skin, it prevents its evaporation. Dry skin is not caused by lack of water - it is caused by excessive evaporation of water from the skin. The natural skin barrier that should prevent evaporation doesn’t work properly. Supplying dry skin with hydrating creams doesn’t work.  It needs some fats to keep the moisture in.  In fact, hydrating creams saturate the skin surface with water which makes the skin look temporarily better but this very temporary hydration actually increases the evaporation of water from the skin!  After several hours you end up with drier skin than you started with. You again apply hydrating cream and the vicious circle continues.

    Infadolan is an ointment, not a cream so it is greasy. For that reason it is probably not so pleasant to use as a daily cream all over the face. Many of our customers use it daily around the eyes and they are very content with the results. They also apply it on the back of the hands. It will stay there throughout the day. Very little will do.

6. any intentions to sell emu oil? im hearing alot of good things about it as a moisturizer

     I have a soft spot for emu birds.. they are so cute :-)

To be honest I think that almond oil will do the same job and much cheaper at that. I use it to clean my face in the morning. I take a cotton pad, slightly wet it with tap water,  pour a little almond oil onto it and clean my face. It keeps the skin moisturized and supple. I keep a big bottle of almond oil in the fridge and I refill a smaller container that I keep in the bathroom.

1819

Dermarolling / Microneedling / Melanocytes transfer for white scars and hypopigmentation

« on: July 15, 2010, 03:36:42 PM »

(from an email)



1.I have alot of hyperpigmentation (and hypo) on body and face.

had countless procedures on face with little improvement.  

  It depends what the cause is of your hypopigmentation. Usually, hypopigmentation is caused by a localized lack of melanin production and hyperpigmentation due to locally excessive melanin production.  Melanin is the pigment that determines the color of our skin and when our skin is exposed to the sun, the skin produces more melanin as a protection – melanin absorbs UV.  

 Melanin peigment is produced by cells called melanocytes. They aren't very deep in the skin. They are at the bottom of the epidermis.

Hypopigmentations usually lack functioning melanocytes and that’s why they are whiter than the surrounding skin and they do not tan. (Vitiligo is a disorder in melanocytes-function just like melasma). Another reason why scars are whiter is their limited blood supply. Needling can actually in some cases induce revascularization of the scar and thus improve its color.  

Needling or rolling sometimes, but not always, restores the normal color of the skin. Needling or rolling by itself often triggers melanocyte production.  You can further increase your chance of success with hypopigmentation by attempting a "Melanocytes transfer":  

  For hypopigmentation, first needle the areas with the single needle. Your next step will be an attempt to “transplant” some melanocytes from the normal to the hypopigmented skin!  Stick the needle many times about 0.3 mm deep (this really is very shallow - try not to go much deeper than that) into the normal-colored skin (anywhere on the body), then stick the needle several times in those needled hypopigmented areas. Repeat this “harvesting“ and “transplanting” of melanocytes. If you are lucky you may transfer some melanocytes.

  I am still researching how to optimize this procedure of melanocytes transfer, so check the forum later. After the "transfer", occluding the skin with plastic foil for a few hours will help them to "take root", and avoid washing that skin the next hours as well. I based this idea on successful melanocyte transfer experiments with Vitiligo patients. Occlusion may not even be necessary, as the melanocytes are "needled in" in our case, and they were merely topically applied in the Vitiligo patients.

Of course, the needled skin eventually needs to be exposed to sunlight in order to get a darker teint.

  The hypopigmented areas might have enough melanocytes but they are malfunctioning or dormant. In that case needling is also worth a try.

For hyperpigmentation, first needle the areas with the single needle, then apply the homemade vit. C serum (vit. C is a mild whitening agent. It also is a mild tyrosinase inhibitor. Tyrosinase is the enzyme that converts tyrosine to melanin. Do a test patch first. Keep using vit. C serum several times a week.

What you could also try is to very thoroughly clean a lemon skin. Using a fork, make the skin leak its juice and put it on your pigmentations. Cover it with plastic foil. Follow this procedure several times a week. If your pigmentation is due to inflammation, do not use the lemon peels. It would further irritate the skin. If your skin takes it well, you can apply the lemon skin juices after needling but do a test patch first. It will sting.

You can also try hydroquinone, which is a strong inhibitor of tyrosinas:

https://http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/How-to-treat-dermal-melasmaD/a>    

  If your hypo- and hyper pigmentation are not localized, you cannot use the single needle.  Use just a dermaroller.    

Post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation is usually also due to excessive  melanin.

2. Cellulite thighs and butt with minimal stretch marks.        

Please read my article on cellulite. There is not much to do about it:  

https://http://www.owndoc.com/dermarolling/what-to-do-about-cellulite/  

3. Under chin and neck = loose skin/slight turkey neck        

Dermarolling can improve mild skin laxity but it cannot improve significant excess of tissue.

Please read:

https://http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/dermarolling-microneedling-hype-realistic-results/

4. surgery and mole removal scars on back of neck and abdomen  

    Here, needling and dermarolling will be very successful.  Surgery scars, mole removal scars, vaccination scars etc can be greatly improved (but not completely removed). The best method is needling with our single needles. Your goal is to crush the hardened scar tissue and trigger new collagen.

1820

Dermarolling / Microneedling / frequency of treatments and results

« on: July 15, 2010, 02:13:03 PM »

Here is a similar question by one of our customers, and my answer below:

Hi Sarah,

   

  With the gear I've bought from your site, I've been following your regime as best I can, mainly to get rid of

  medium depth skin pitting from acne in my twenties  ( in my forties now ).

   

  I have used 1.5mm roller on cheeks & forehead once every 5 weeks. i've just done my third

  session. I use the vit. C and brush the skin regularly too.

 

  I can't see any difference whatsoever even though lots of dramatic results seem to happen on

  websites and pictures with people with far more severe acne than me in about 3 WEEKS ?

 

    I do use roller quite firmly and I use the single needle on more obvious pitted areas

 

    Can you suggest what I might be doing wrong

   

  Regards

  [deleted]

 

Hi [deleted],

   

  From what you described, I don't think you are doing anything wrong, neither are you doing too little. You can try to single-needle more deeply and aggressively (up to quite some pinpoint bleeding).  You can aggressively needle every day or every second day - one scar at a time for example to avoid doing it all in one go and having whole face full of red spots.

   

  Try to prick the scar from different angles and needle the edges as well.

   

  Male skin is usually thicker than female skin. Do you get some pinpoint bleeding when you roll and single needle? If not, go deeper.

   

  We have customers who reported improvement but only after many months of monthly needling! The scar remodeling after needling may take many month to be completed. So this is a long-term project, no miracles can be expected, in spite of what some websites may promise. Most vendors in this field will say anything to sell more rollers. You really need to be in this for the long haul to see results, but results eventually do materialize - in the majority of cases.

   

  You could also try to apply Retin A directly after needling the scar. It will sting. You could even "needle" some Retin A straight into the scar. You must do a test patch on one scar to see how it will react.

   

  Best regards,

  Sarah

1821

Dermarolling / Microneedling / The perfect dermaroller/ skin care plan?

« on: July 06, 2010, 08:03:01 AM »

Thank you Halokid :-)

The problem is that dermarollers are a relatively new method of skin rejuvenation and nobody knows the absolutely best, perfect regimen. The same applies to laser treatment, radiofrequency etc. Not everything works for everybody (or at least not to the same degree).  I wish I knew a wonderful routine that would perfectly work for all skin conditions and for everybody..

  Little changes in a routine are not going to make any significant difference.

  I think that your surgery scar management is very good. It often needs quite aggressive, repeated needling to yield improvement although the scar will never disappear entirely. It will hopefully soften and blend more with the surrounding skin but the tear in the skin will always remain. What you can try is to apply Retin A just after needling the individual scars. Apply it only on the scar. It will sting. On top of the Retin A, apply some Infadolan. To be honest, I think that fine lines and wrinkles look attractive in males. I am not a fan of Botox for males..

   I don't think that dermarolling will fix the broken capillaries.  I read claims that it could improve broken capillaries but I have not experienced it, neither have our customers who were hoping for this. Broken capillaries are sometimes (not everybody is happy with the result) successfully treated by a "vascular laser". Capillaries and bloodvessels transport red blood cells, containing hemoglobin. Vascular laser- or IPL wavelengths are absorbed by hemoglobin. In the hemoglobin, this absorbed light energy is transformed to heat and that leads to the thermal destruction of the capillaries.

A dermaroller should be able to partially fix the sun damage and hypopigmentation (depending on its cause).

If you want to achieve the best results, use a dermaroller for skin product penetration (up to 0.2 mm roller, up to 4 times a week) and apply vit. C immediately after rolling. If it stings too much, dilute the vit. C serum with more water. Vit. C doesn’t penetrate the skin easily and rolling will greatly enhance its penetration. Not everybody can handle the stinging though.

You can also try applying some antiaging or other creams after rolling. I am sorry I cannot comment on efficacy of any creams. I can only guarantee that if you apply them after dermarolling, their penetration will be greatly increased.  You can likewise apply the copper peptide mask after rolling.

  I'm currently researching the possibility of using hyaluronic acid in combination with dermarolling but I'm not ready with that yet.

 

Back to rolling advice: Then, once in three weeks do quite an aggressive roll with a 1.5 mm roller and use Infadolan immediately afterwards.  Try to avoid the sun and protect yourself as much as possible. The skin is very vulnerable after deep aggressive rolling.

I received several emails in which customers say they use Infadolan daily around their eyes and it slightly improved the sagginess and the lines. Some already swear by it and order it regularly.

Please excuse me if I haven't answered your question satisfactorily. I'm currently packing for a long trip in a RV all around Scandinavia and we leave today. If you have any further questions, just ask but there will be delay in replies throughout July. Order processing and dispatch operates as usual though.

Related forum posting:

 https://http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/Best-Skin-Care-Routine

1822

Dermarolling / Microneedling / wheat germ oil

« on: July 01, 2010, 05:42:12 AM »

No problems, but I advise using it in concurrence with the Infadolan, so that all oily substances are used simultaneously (a vit. C absorption issue). I am not aware of any excessively anti-inflammatory properties of wheat germ oil (Tea tree oil is such an oil and should be avoided, as dermarolling relies on mild micro-inflammation). Be aware that vit. C can't be absorbed by the skin when an oily layer blocks its absorption, so use the vit. C some hours before using the oil-based products.

1823

Dermarolling / Microneedling / Can a .25mm dermaroller be used after a 1.5mm on the face for product penetration and if yes, starting when?

« on: June 28, 2010, 03:23:31 PM »

0.5 mm can be used up to three times a week on the same skin area.

  Yes, you can roll for product penetation in between the deep rolls. I would say wait five days or at least until the redness is completely gone.      

Do not forget to apply the vit. C serum just after rolling (if it stings too much, add more water). Vit. C serum doesn't penetrate easily into the skin so   applying it after rolling will ensure maximum penetration.    

  The mask should stay for 10 to 15 minutes but do not wash the residue off your face. Wash your face after dermarolling before you apply the mask.

  You can either apply a little Infadolan over the product or apply Infadolan the morning after to keep it moist. The mask it quite moisturizing so you can apply Infadolan later.

1824

Dermarolling / Microneedling / frequency of treatments and results

« on: June 26, 2010, 04:58:49 PM »

Hi Ted,

It's true that one can find enthousiastic reports of improvement after a few rolling sessions, but often that's because the mild swelling associated with rolling can give a better appearance. A few sessions over some months definitely is not enough to get results because the remodelling process takes months to finish. That means that only your first rolling session has "matured", and often a dozen sessions are required for significant results.

Especially for acne scars we sell our specially designed single needle, allowing you to treat them intensively and deeply from various angles, crushing the scar tissue. If you haven't tried that yet, you should definitely start. We sell them cheaply in batches of five. Also, you could consider rolling with longer needle length.

Not everyone gets good results with dermarolling acne scars though. There is a percentage of people who just have bad luck (it could be a skin-genetical issue). And some people get quicker results than others.

There are no long-term side effects because the epidermis is not thinned by dermarolling. So you can roll dozens of times over years and nothing will happen - except, usually, the beneficial effects associated with microneedling. It's the same with laser treatment and dermabrasion for acne scars - there also is a percentage of people for which it doesn't work.

It may be hard to stay focused and keep going even though you see no benefits, but remember that improvement in microneedling is exponential. You often only see some improvement after say half a year or even more than that. But then things accelerate. You can compare it with compound interest. Stay the course. It's only once a month at most. Keep doing it and report back a year from now. There is no easy cure for acne scars but dermarolling acne scars does usually give worthwhile results, with patient persistence.

1825

Dermarolling / Microneedling / The more blood the better, when dermarolling?

« on: June 23, 2010, 09:31:00 AM »

I do have a question for you though. How much blood should you see from

  Dermarolling? I think the more the better, just as long as it's not

  toooooo much? It just seems to me that, if you get more aggressive with the

  treatment you would see better results. I.E. Braking up scar tissue,

  activating more collagen, creating more blood for new; skin, collagen,

  elastin, etc..? What is your advice? I have read conflicting reports but

  am not sure which is the best or if it doesn't even matter. Hope all is well!

 

Hi [deleted],

  Mild skin injury is a nice trick to make the body renew the skin. When you injure the skin (enough to make a difference and not too much to cause scars), the body will immediately start repairing the damage. This is one of the principles behind certain laser treatments, acid peels, dermabrasion, dermarolling etc.

The advantage of dermarolling compared to those other methods is that it doesn’t remove the outermost layer of skin and there is no danger of burns and other thermal damage.

  Wound healing has 3 stages - Inflammation, proliferation and remodeling.

  Inflammation is a reaction of our body to heal the injury.  More details here:

https://http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/How-long-does-the-inflammation-stage-lasts-after-rolling-with-long-needles

 

During the inflammation stage, the blood vessels dilate, resulting in an increased blood flow to the area. The area becomes red and warm. Plasma fluids will flood the area and cause swelling. When the immune system cleans the area of damaged cells, the damaged cells will be replaced by new ones.

  The skin consists of 3 layers. The epidermis, the dermis and subdermis.

  The epidermis has no blood supply. The dermis has irregular blood vessels and the deeper the dermis the more blood vessels.  If you puncture a blood vessel you end up with pinpoint bleeding or even bruises.



The more damage in the dermis you cause, the more remodeling you will get. Nevertheless it is also connected to a higher risk of scarring, infection or hyperpigmentation.  For home use, it is much safer to do several rolling sessions with occasional pinpoint bleeding than one "totally bloody" to obtain the same results. Especially if you roll large areas.



If your achieve inflammation (your skin temporarily becoming red after dermarolling), the process of skin renewal has been triggered. That is all you need and you have to regularly repeat it to get results. Your expectations must be realistic.  Currently there is no method to completely remove scars, stretch marks, significantly change the pore size or texture of your skin or stop the aging process. A lot of it is determined by hereditary factors.  You can achieve improvements though.



We provide single needles that are approx. 2 mm long for deep, intensive targeted treatment of scars or wrinkles. The scar tissue is usually hardened and has to be “crushed” by dense single needling. Single-needling may also release the anchoring of the scar or the wrinkle to the subcutaneous tissue and thus make the scar or wrinkle less indented. You do not (always) have to insert the entire length of the needle (2 to 2.2 mm) into the skin. The full needle length is intended as a safety stop.  The skin doesn’t have the same thickness all over the body, neither is the skin precisely identically thick in all individuals.



  On a limited-size area such as individual wrinkles or individual stretchmarks or scars, you can go deeper and denser with the single needle and get more pinpoint bleeding.  Always do a test patch first to learn what to expect, how much you will bleed, how it heals etc. Make your skin softer by having a hot bath, shower or steaming the face prior needling/rolling and don’t forget to stretch the skin to make it easier for the needle to penetrate.

Related forum posting:
https://http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/do-we-need-to-get-that-bloody-to-get-results/

1826

Dermarolling / Microneedling / derma stamp

« on: June 23, 2010, 09:22:17 AM »

It is useful for acne scars. We plan to sell them in the future. A dermaroller will do the same job though. The most targeted scar treatment is the single needle, allowing you to approach the scar from different angles and using different needling densities. Single-needling requires lots of patience.

1827

Dermarolling / Microneedling / Can dermarolling tighten the skin?

« on: June 23, 2010, 09:15:06 AM »

The best approach is to tone the muscles by exercise (very important), dry brushing the skin or exfoliation with fine salt + almond oil, regular dermarolling, the use of vit. C serum and not overexposing the skin to the sun.

1828

Dermarolling / Microneedling / Copper peptides

« on: June 23, 2010, 09:13:14 AM »

Any cream or mask can be used without dermarolling. The penetration of the product is highly enhanced by dermarolling. The copper peptide masks were designed to be used without dermarolling and the concentration of copper peptides is very high at 2000 ppm. So yes, you will benefit also without rolling.

  However it is impossible to predict the results - you have to try it. You could use one mask a week for a while.

1829

Dermarolling / Microneedling / Copper peptides

« on: June 23, 2010, 02:33:51 AM »

You should keep that plastic part attached, it should be on the outside - it is "occluding", it prevents the evaporation of the copper peptide lotion and increases its absorbtion.

1830

Dermarolling / Microneedling / Enquiry on 0.25mm dermaroller kit

« on: June 21, 2010, 07:42:03 AM »

The single needles are 2 mm long. This is intended as a safety stop. Some are slightly longer or shorter. You do not have to stick the whole needle in.  Pinpoint bleeding is the limit. Try to needle from different angles. Do not forget to needle the edges.

  The needles of a 1.5 mm dermaroller penetrate about 1.3 mm into the skin.    

   How long the vit. C powder will last depends on the size of the area you apply it on and how strong a percentage you make it. It is better to make just a small amount of vit. C serum and make a new batch every two weeks or so.

  For maximum penetration, you should apply the vit. C serum just after rolling with 0.20 or 0.25 mm. Since vit. C is acidic, this might sting. In that case, dilute the serum with more water.      

  If your skin can't handle the vit. C serum just after rolling, apply it later.    

  Do not make a stronger percentage than 20%.    



19 parts of water and 1 part of vit.  C powder makes roughly 5% vit C  solution.



  9 parts of water and 1 part of  vit. C makes roughly a 10% vit. C  solution.

  Do not mix the application of the vit. C serum with anything else. It could prevent its penetration. E.g., do not use vit. C after having used other skin care products. Vit. C serum should be applied on "clean" skin, no other products applied beforehand.      

    We now sell vit. C separately for 3 USD per 20 g.

https://http://shop.owndoc.com/p-175/vitamin-c.html