Post by: SarahVaughter on March 09, 2011, 01:13:43 PM
S Aalami Harandi, K Balighi, V Lajevardi,, E Akbari
Conclusion:
"Frequent suctioning at the recurrence period of subcision increases subcision efficacy remarkably and causes significant and persistent improvement in short time, without considerable complication, in depressed scars of the face."
Full article here: http://www.owndoc.com/pdf/therapy-in-treatment-of-atrophic-acne-scars.pdf
Prior to suctionng, instead of subcision, needle the scar aggressively with the single needle from all angles or use a dermastamp.
From the study:
"start of suction on third day after subcision for flat and depressing subcised scars and its continuation at least every other day for 2weeks."
"high grade of improvement was mostly in patients in group A1 who had almost daily suctioning in the first week of suctioning period"
"On the first days, we used less negative pressure; but in the subsequent sessions, depending on the condition of scars, we could increase negative pressure (even to maximum: −70 mmHg), length of time (not more than 4 s in each pass) and the number of suctioning passes (even 8–12 passes) per session."
Subcision is a much more aggressive method than needling/stamping so you should actually start suctioning sooner than 3 days after needling/stamping. Start a day after.
The suctioning method is so new and this (cheap!) method is so rarely used by doctors that the absolutely optimal approach is not known yet and you have to basically improvise and try different approaches.
The study used 0.1 bar (10%) underpressure and our pump sucks stronger but on the other hand, more suction is necessary because you're not doing a subcision first.
UPDATE: We are now selling these pumps here:
http://shop.owndoc.com/product-info.php?suction-pump-scars-pid212.html
Please read these two forum postings. They contain some good tips from our forum members regarding the suctioning method:
http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/indented-forehead-shingles-aftermath-(/
http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/14-month-update-skin-keeps-getting-better
Other interesting methods to improve scars:
http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/Saline-injections-for-acne-scars
http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/Autologous-(own)-blood-injection-for-acne-scars-or-atrophic-scars
Post by: healingtoday on March 22, 2011, 10:53:52 PM
http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&biw=853&bih=529&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=cupping+suction+kit&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
It creates very good suction and you would want to get one especially for the face.
I've been trying it for a little bit...its too early to say about the results. I just needled my scars several days ago and I'll start suctioning and will report on if I see any results.
Post by: qchris50 on May 19, 2011, 04:26:39 PM
Post by: soon on July 20, 2011, 04:41:38 AM
I have one ice pick scar that I'm guna try to improve with the "suction method".
I'm hoping someone can guide me on how its done.
First I will try it with a syringe.
I'm clueless as to how often I do it and how long I'm meant to keep suction going.
Haven't had much luck doing an online search so any advise will be appreciated.
Cheers soon
Post by: Fredrik on July 20, 2011, 11:51:16 AM
- Would it be possible to go around with, let's say some tape to keep your skin constantly stretched after needling/dermarolling to force constant haemorrhage? If not, would it be good to perform suction several times a day or would that just do more bad than good?
- Can dermarolling also cause the fibers to release scarred tissue, or is needling from different angles the only option?
- While needling, would it be beneficial to pinch the skin for easier penetration with the needle? Like they do with the subcision.
Thanks a lot for sharing this new technique, the article gave me some new hope :-)
Post by: FINLEY on July 20, 2011, 10:50:00 PM
I never use the same syringe twice during one session of subcision, so I go through several syringes every 3 wks but they, and the saline, are inexpensive. I have been needling using dermal stamp, and rolling my face with a 2mm roller every 6 wks, and performing subcision every 3 wks, so that every 6 wks I am combining the rolling and stamping session with needling and subcision. I have had no problems, which may be because I use very good aseptic technique, washing everything down with alcohol before starting the procedure, filling the syringes using sterile technique, and cleaning my face and hands repeatedly with alcohol before each injection. I must admit, it takes some bravery to do this to one's self, and I say this as a RN, but it can be done. I have decided to pull out my 1.5 mm roller, which can be used every 3-4 wks, and start doing the entire combined procedure every 3 wks just to push it along a little faster.
Also, I love Alcare Plus, which can be bought on-line- I rub it into my skin many times per day on the days after I roll. It is an alcohol foam product used in hospitals to cut down on staph infections- it has an emollient which keeps the skin from drying out.
I am so empathic with anyone who struggles with acne scarring, having lived with it for 44 yrs before I started working with Sarah and her products, so I hope this advice will be helpful. Sarah is a gift from above!
Good luck!
P.S. I feel I actually "hear" the scar tissue releasing most when I am using the dermal stamp, which I do 6-8 times per scar each session, rotating the stamp slightly clock-wise after each punch. (My advice is to repeatedly clean the skin with alcohol soaked cotton balls throughout the procedures. I do not know if everyone agrees with that, but it works for me.)
Post by: soon on July 21, 2011, 12:22:29 AM
Thanks so much for all your detail and experience.
Personally, for now I'm not going to use injections.
I will single needle as usual but then want to try "suction"
I have a syringe with no needle that I hope I can use for this.
I've ordered this.....
http://www.dealyea.com/Product/Facial-Pore-Cleanser-Cleaner-Blackhead-Acne-Remover.htm
But not sure if it would be as good as manual suction (fighting immature urge...actress, bishop hehee)
I hope its just done post needelling.
Advise from anyone who's tried this would be great. If not guess I'll try 2minutes daily for a few months (suction only, needle as per instructions)
FINLEY I agree.....Sarah is truly a genuine & giving soul. It's like that saying "do what you love & the rest will follow"
She cares and she's not "fluff" I like her edge....I bet she doesn't suffer fools......hmmm maybe this
Is my last post jk :)
All the best,
Cheers soon
Post by: soon on July 21, 2011, 11:21:21 AM
I was looking at healingtodays link and was wondering if suction cups,
have any benefits to normal skin.
Cheers soon
Post by: SarahVaughter on July 23, 2011, 11:23:10 AM
http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/Saline-injections-for-acne-scars
Finley, I am surprised you had problems with getting the sterile saline solution (also called a physiological solution) because I believe they sell it OTC in any pharmacy to clean wounds. I have it in the first aid kit in my car. It is better to buy many very small bottles and always open a new one with each new session.
Medline Sterile Saline Solution, .9%, 5ML, Box: 100
http://www.amazon.com/Medline-Sterile-Saline-Solution-9/dp/B000K6WHEG/ref=pd_sim_hpc_2
> I'm clueless as to how often I do it and how long I'm meant to keep suction going.
"The protocol for suctioning was: start of suction on third day after subcision for flat and depressing subcised scars and its continuation at least every other day for 2weeks."
"On the first days, we used less negative pressure; but in the subsequent sessions, depending on the condition of scars, we could increase negative pressure (even to maximum: −70 mmHg), length of time (not more than 4 s in each pass) and the number of suctioning passes (even 8–12 passes) per session."
-70mm Hg is 0.1 bar underpressure, not very much. Our pumps create a much stronger underpressure and this is required because our customers will not sever the fibrotic strands by doing a subsicion and hence need a much stronger underpressure.
Preventing the fibrotic fibers from re-attaching doesn’t need such a high underpressure. As they explained, they also wanted to cause a hematoma to enhance the effect.
On the other hand, bruising is associated with diminished scars (one of our customers testified to that here: Improvement in acne scars with suction method).
The suctioning method is so new and this (cheap!) method is so rarely used by doctors that the absolutely optimal approach is not known yet and you have to basically improvise and try different methods.
> Can dermarolling also cause the fibers to release scarred tissue, or is needling from different angles the only option?
You have to really aggressively needle or stamp the scar to release the fibrotic tissue.
> While needling, would it be beneficial to pinch the skin for easier penetration with the needle? Like they do with the subcision.
Probably yes but you may end up with a hematoma.
Post by: soon on August 25, 2011, 09:25:35 PM
I'll need a tummy tuck & breast lift from weight loss so
I'm trying to learn all I can to do post op to reduce scars.
;)
Post by: Dollys on August 27, 2011, 08:51:12 AM
Can you start selling the Nokor Needles with scalpel top as we who live outside US can not buy them anywhere on the Internet, please sell them in smaller packs the boxes of 100 and we will be many customers ordering from you
http://www.allegromedical.com//syringes-c570/needle-admix-18g-1-1-2-in-thin-n-p548849.html?engine=shopping&utm_source=shopping&utm_medium=feed&CS_003=9164468&CS_010=ff80808111238d9d011124b67e644b9d&gdftrk=gdfV21244_a_7c477_a_7c2723_a_7c548849
Post by: SarahVaughter on August 29, 2011, 05:21:24 PM
You should certainly first try many dense and deep vertical needlings with our very thin single needles, combined with some kind of suction method and saline injections (I wrote a forum posting about saline injections). Only if this method fails should you consider horizontal subcision.
Post by: FINLEY on August 29, 2011, 08:46:35 PM
Post by: soon on August 29, 2011, 09:38:23 PM
I'm excited to read this method has worked so well for you.
Because of your results & detailed explaination, I'm going to try it.
Hope you don't mind some questions.....:P
1. Do you use any suction device? If so what?
I've ordered small suction cups as pore cleaning device isn't strong enough.
2. Do you use a new "fresh" needle every single time you penetrate skin? Or one needle
per scar?
3. As a nurse what do you think is the best treatment for surgical scars? Short & long term.
Thanks
Soon
Post by: FINLEY on August 29, 2011, 11:27:03 PM
I do, however, have lots of experience with acne scars: I do use a fresh single needle for each session, but not for each scar. As one works with the needles one notices when the needles seem to dull. I do sometimes use 2 needles per session, but the second needle might not be used extensively, thus having some "life" left in it. I do reuse those needles, running the needle under water and gently placing needle on a plate, submerged in alcohol for at least 20 minutes- I then place the needle gently back into original packaging, seal package, and use it for part of another session, if it seems not to have dulled. (A dull needle will not be helpful to release scar tissue fibers.)
I also have not used a suction device so can give no advice regarding use.
I have been using a 20% solution of Salicylic acid (available on Amazon) on enlarged pores I have on my nose- it does appear to be slowly shrinking the pores, and it has greatly slowed down oil production; I especially appreciate having no more shiny nose at mid-morning. (I do keep a bowl of ice water on the counter to use to dilute the acid when each 5 minute session is ended; then I rinse with cool water.)
I no longer derma roll my nose- the skin on my nose seemed to tolerate derma rolling poorly, unlike the rest of my face, neck and upper chest, all which respond very well to derma rolling.
As a nurse, my best advice is to follow Sarah's directions very closely- prepare all of your equipment on an area that you have cleaned thoroughly with alcohol. Fill your syringes very carefully being careful not to touch the roller, needles, etc. to any other surface before you use on your face. (As with any endeavor, good preparation is the key, and this is an endeavor. I feel that it takes a lot of courage every time I perform the procedure.)
Good luck- the results are worth the effort!
Post by: soon on August 30, 2011, 02:06:42 AM
I really appreciate the detail you give.
I hope the following isn't to obtuse but never seeing it done ....
How many times would you inject "squirt" saline into one ice pick type scar?
I'm scared I'm going to over fill it and it'll pop.
You do it multi directional, is that right?
What occurs after injections? I'm wondering how long scars looked full before its absorbed.
It's not clear to me yet what injecting saline versus just needleing does. Scientific info takes
awhile for my brain to store it.
I've read saline can temporarily fill wrinkles. If you've any, have you tried?
20% salicylic solution......ouch :)
I daily use a 2% and leave it on prior to Sarah's Vit C.
Once I made a 5% solution & found that it stung.
I'm so glad your getting some good results from it.
thank-you
soon
Post by: FINLEY on August 30, 2011, 12:31:39 PM
Post by: soon on August 30, 2011, 08:54:37 PM
I feel much more confident going ahead with it.
Post by: FINLEY on August 30, 2011, 10:24:39 PM
Post by: SarahVaughter on May 01, 2012, 12:07:04 PM
http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/Indented-forehead-shingles-aftermath-(
http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/14-month-update-skin-keeps-getting-better
Post by: Dewydewey on May 07, 2012, 08:42:50 PM
I am using Vaughter's 1.5 mm dermastamp and purchased a wine vacuum from a local wine store to try the suction method (thank you member Arachne).
I stamped my rolling acne scars and waited three days before suctioning those areas. I have read the article you provided on the first post of this thread (three times!) My goal was to suction the areas once a day for a week and then every other day for additional week. I am on day two of suctioning. My question is if I could damage my skin? Since we are using the wine vacuum as the suction and not for what it is intended...I thought I should reach out and post my concerns before I suction any more.
My skin becomes very red after suctioning-no bruising or hematomas, though. I can see the prick marks in my skin complete with the red pinpoint bleeding marks. My skin looks exactly the way it does when I stamp. Because I have suctioned two days in a row, my skin has never had time to calm down and I'm just starting to have doubts! Any one else trying this technique at home?
Post by: boafriend on May 09, 2012, 01:40:35 PM
Post by: SarahVaughter on May 09, 2012, 05:24:15 PM
"On the first days, we used less
negative pressure; but in the subsequent sessions, depending on
the condition of scars, we could increase negative pressure (even
to maximum -70 mmHg), length of time (not more than 4 s in
each pass) and the number of suctioning passes (even 8–12 passes)
per session. ‘Effective suctioning caused oedema and haemorrhages
in the subcised scars and led to ELEVATION OF DEPRESSING SCARS
ABOVE THE SKIN SURFACE’ (Fig. 1f,g)."
"high grade of improvement was mostly in patients in group A1 who had almost daily suctioning in the first week of suctioning period"
The suctioning method is so new and this (cheap!) method is so rarely used by doctors that the absolutely optimal approach is not known yet and you have to basically improvise and try different methods.
The study used 0.1 bar (10%) underpressure and our pump sucks stronger but on the other hand, more suction is necessary because you're not doing a subcision first.
Post by: Dewydewey on May 10, 2012, 11:52:06 AM
Would it then be safe to assume I cannot damage my skin with the wine vacuum pump? I did not suction my skin yesterday because I am really fearful that this could cause broken capillaries. Could this cause broken capillaries ? My skin has calmed down and is not so red...I don't mean to sound negative but it would be my luck to end up with skin that looks worse than what I started with.
By the way, I used my Electrolux vacuum cleaner the day before yesterday with a crevice attatchment. The machine started to have this horrible smell so I turned it off. I'm feeling a bit disillusioned right now to think I may not have only messed up my skin but also damaged my beloved vacuum cleaner, too!
Post by: cesamaddictaol on May 11, 2012, 02:20:32 AM
Post by: Dewydewey on May 11, 2012, 08:55:16 PM
The wine vacuum pump was suggested by another member, Arachne. I purchased one from a local wine shop. It was approximately $12.00. I am not familiar with the Vaculifter-I will have to search that.
I went ahead and resumed with the suction today (with the wine vacuum) being that the redness has subsided and this was my biggest concern. I was afraid I may be breaking capillaries. I don't even know if that is possible! I am also just suctioning one scar instead of several. I'm remaining optimistic and patient.
Post by: cesamaddictaol on May 12, 2012, 01:51:03 PM
I went ahead and bought a cupping prodcet from www.massagecupping.com for about 40 bucks
If this site however at some point in the future desides to seel something affordable I will gladly rather purchase something recommended by this site *hint*
Dewydewey;3514 wrote: Hi cesamaddictaol-
The wine vacuum pump was suggested by another member, Arachne. I purchased one from a local wine shop. It was approximately $12.00. I am not familiar with the Vaculifter-I will have to search that.
I went ahead and resumed with the suction today (with the wine vacuum) being that the redness has subsided and this was my biggest concern. I was afraid I may be breaking capillaries. I don't even know if that is possible! I am also just suctioning one scar instead of several. I'm remaining optimistic and patient.
Post by: Dewydewey on May 13, 2012, 04:25:54 PM
I am basically following the program in the article that Sarah posted at the beginning of this thread and will now proceed to suction every other day for one week. I then plan to stop suctioning for the following two weeks-reintroducing Vitamin C in the morning and Retin A at night.
This will put me to week four and then I will dermastamp and begin the routine all over again.
Post by: Arachne on May 14, 2012, 06:32:09 AM
I've been doing the demastamp/suction treatment for several weeks now and can definitely see some improvement. I use a 1.5 mm dermastamp every three weeks. On the third day after dermastamping I use the wine pump every night until the next dermastamping session. I activate the pump about six or eight times, holding the pump's handle extended for a count of three or four seconds each time. It is important to position the end of the cork onto the scar in such a way that a completely airtight seal is formed. A little oil smeared on your skin helps to seal the gaps. When you do it correctly, you can feel the pressure when you activate the pump, and there is a tugging feel on the skin and a popping sound when you release the pump. You will then see that the skin over the scar has risen up to form a dome shape, a bit like a well-risen sponge cake just out of the oven. For the first few days, you may also notice tiny red prick marks appearing. This is presumably blood flowing to the areas left by the dermastamp pins. The scar looks much flatter and gives you an idea of how it will eventually look (with luck!) once the underlying tissues have been rebuilt. By next morning, the scar reverts to its indented state and the red prick marks have gone, but after a couple of weeks you begin to notice that the scar is not quite as deeply indented as it originally was, and this daily coaxing into shape is very encouraging. By the third week after dermastamping the daily reddening effect caused by the blood leaking into the derma stamp's pinholes during suctioning is not nearly as evident as during the first week. This is one indication that the skin has healed sufficiently, and it's time for a new dermastamping session, and the whole cycle begins again. People think I'm quite made to be attacking my scars with pins and pumps. But I'm now absolutely convinced that it works.
Over on the
Post by: Dewydewey on May 14, 2012, 08:23:22 PM
Post by: boafriend on May 14, 2012, 09:04:05 PM
Any idea as to what I'm doing wrong? There's no button or anything and I know you just stick one of the cork things in and start pumping, but...yeah I'm not feeling anything.
Post by: Dewydewey on May 14, 2012, 09:31:17 PM
I remember seeing this brand at my store but opted to purchase one that resembled the picture that Arachne had posted. Mine is from Vacuvin. Are you sure you have a tight seal on the area? Also are you pulling all the way up on the pump? You may have to pump a few times. Just like Arachne posted, my Vacuvin wine vacuum makes a clicking noise and it is at this time there is so much pressure built up that one can no longer get in another pump. It is very similar to how my air pump feels when I am putting air in my bicycle tire-except of pushing down you are pushing up. There is a definite point where you feel the tight pressure and know it is time to stop pumping.
Post by: Dewydewey on May 14, 2012, 09:33:30 PM
Post by: boafriend on May 15, 2012, 01:08:05 AM
Dewydewey;3542 wrote: Hi Boafriend,
I remember seeing this brand at my store but opted to purchase one that resembled the picture that Arachne had posted. Mine is from Vacuvin. Are you sure you have a tight seal on the area? Also are you pulling all the way up on the pump? You may have to pump a few times. Just like Arachne posted, my Vacuvin wine vacuum makes a clicking noise and it is at this time there is so much pressure built up that one can no longer get in another pump. It is very similar to how my air pump feels when I am putting air in my bicycle tire-except of pushing down you are pushing up. There is a definite point where you feel the tight pressure and know it is time to stop pumping.
Yeah, this is the funny part. I feel that the corks don't FIRMLY fit into the pump. I don't know if this is the reason why.
And yes, I'm pretty sure I'm pulling all the way up on the pump. I also tested on an area of my leg (with some oil applied prior) and I didn't experience anything. Absolutely no tight suction feeling and no clicking sound of any sort. =/
Post by: Arachne on May 15, 2012, 05:27:17 AM
Post by: boafriend on May 15, 2012, 04:21:52 PM
Arachne;3546 wrote: Hi Boafriend. Yes, the corks have to fit onto the pump in such a way that there is no air leakage possible. There are two places that must be absolutely airtight: the join between cork and pump, and also the join between skin and cork. If there's even a tiny gap anywhere in those two places you will not be able to produce a vacuum. Another thing is that you have to press hard all the time while you are pumping. Dewydewey's comment about the bicycle pump is exactly right. That's what it reminded me of too. It's a matter of luck whether your wine pump will work, as it depends on its design. I had another type of pump which did not work because the corks are not designed to fit onto the pump in the same way: you simply position the pump over the top of the cork and press down to form a seal. That's fine for wine bottles standing upright on a table, but it doesn't work for our purposes because you can't exert the necessary pressure when you try to press horizontally against your face. So it's important to get the right kind of pump.
Yeah the way these corks fit into the pump look similar to the designs we've been seeing but I'm wondering if it's the fact that these corks are rubber that's preventing them from really staying in firm place in the pump. =/ Maybe I'll try looking for a different one today. I'm guessing I should look for a pump in which the corks included are made of perhaps plastic or metal?
Post by: Dewydewey on May 15, 2012, 09:16:37 PM
Post by: boafriend on May 16, 2012, 02:44:21 AM
Dewydewey;3552 wrote: The cork from my kit is rubber (it came with just one). The pump itself is made of plastic. Could it be that your pump has a square end to it rather than a circular one? I'm not sure why it's not working. I wish I could help...
Yeah, mine is square shaped, not circular. Maybe this is why? Well I'll try looking around for different ones. Either way I'm late on the 3 day waiting period since I last stamped, so...we'll see.
I appreciate you trying to help, though.
Post by: Streak on May 22, 2012, 12:16:22 AM
cesamaddictaol;3512 wrote: Has anyone tried the Vaculifter? I'm considering buying one. It's the only kind of Suction device I can find online that's intended for the face.
Cesamaddictaol, I don't know if you're still interested in the Vaculifter but I own the "small" one for facial use (in other words, the very smallest one you can buy). I absolutely love it and think it can work really well as an adjunct to various types of needling, but I don't think it's powerful enough or precise enough to use for this type of very localized scar treatment. The suction devices being used to "lift" scars seem to be very small, and the VL isn't quite that small.
Bear in mind though that the VL is still plenty strong, and if you decide to give it a try, go easy at first (just a few passes over each area and keep them short, with little suction) or you'll end up with embarrassing red marks and bruises all over your face and neck :o Just be patient and go slow enough to assess your tolerance and you'll do fine. :)
Post by: cvw on May 22, 2012, 06:43:41 PM
Very informative and thank you all for updating! I had begun suctioning after single needling but got scared after I bruised. I am using this: http://www.amazon.com/North-Coast-Medical-Scar-Suction/dp/B0052ZWD8K.
Even the circumference of the smallest pump is way too large for my boxcar/ice picks. With your devices, do they cover the scar only or does the suction catch surrounding skin? From using the pump above, I had large circles of bruised skin that lasted for about a week so I quit using it after 3 or 4 days. Maybe I should try a wine pump?
Thanks!
Post by: cesamaddictaol on May 23, 2012, 01:14:21 PM
Post by: Dewydewey on May 23, 2012, 07:06:37 PM
My wine pump attachment has a circumference of approximately 1 1/2 cm, so it does catch some of the surrounding skin. I had stopped suctioning after a few days just like you. I experimented with my vacuum cleaner on day three and it got a bit out of control. The suction was fierce! I accidentally suctioned the area just above my cheek and it looked like I had broken some capillaries but no bruising. I am happy to say that I did not break any capillaries and all redness has gone away....I am however sticking with the wine pump because I feel it gives me more control.
Post by: boafriend on May 25, 2012, 07:25:04 PM
I was about to buy a hand held vacuum but I read some posts on this forum about users feeling that the suctioning may have been too powerful, so I decided to not pursue that. I've looked on Amazon too but there's an overwhelming amount of wine pumps, so I was just wondering if someone could give some suggestions? I've extremely frustrated with my rolling scars and really want to start doing something so they'll finally start filling in.
Thanks.
Post by: Dewydewey on May 26, 2012, 09:07:15 PM
Post by: Miss S on May 28, 2012, 10:42:22 AM
After reading this thread i tried the suction method after needling. On the third day after using suction cups i have developed redness on both my cheeks. The redness makes my acnes scars more obvious. I stopped using the suction. It has been 3 days since but the redness has not subsided and I am really worried i have caused broken capillaries! My scars looks much worse than it was before! It is difficult to cover with makeup.
Has anyone else experienced this??
Post by: Dewydewey on May 28, 2012, 03:14:01 PM
Most definitely yes. Read my post # 11 on the "indented forehead shingles aftermath" thread:
http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/Indented-forehead-shingles-aftermath-%28
and Sarah's reassuring answer in post # 12.
My best advice would probably be to stop suctioning until the redness goes away. I know you will miss out on the benefit of the suction but it will put your worries at ease when you realize the redness DOES go away. My redness subsided after approx two days of not suctioning, though (after which I resumed with the suction). Once you see that your skin will return back to normal you can wait the couple of weeks and stamp again with confidence, this time adding the suction.
What has been everyone else's experience?
Post by: cj123 on May 28, 2012, 10:05:30 PM
This certainly seems like a cheap way to do home treatments in conjunction with using the dermastamp, roller and single needle. The only concern is that it would lead to loose flabby skin in the suctioned area. Anyone have opinions on this?
Post by: Arachne on May 29, 2012, 10:11:59 AM
Post by: Miss S on May 29, 2012, 07:42:09 PM
Thankyou for your reply. I did stop suctioning after that encounter. It has been a few days but i still have got some redness on the cheeks. Maybe it has faded a little. I really do hope it does go away!
Post by: Arachne on June 01, 2012, 03:10:42 PM
Post by: SarahVaughter on June 04, 2012, 10:27:38 AM
Post by: CaliSubcision on June 07, 2012, 07:40:03 PM
Im new to this forum this is my first post so please be nice :). Today i had subcision for rolling scars for my cheek. Right now it is still bruised, swollen, and slight pain. I been reading about subcision and suction for better healing of depressed scars. I saw alot of people asking about suction devices -- wine pumps, vaccum cleaner etc -- Ive found something on Amazon that might work a little better.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0040TZYBC/
I rushed delivered this device and expect it to arrive tomorrow. I will try suctioning 1 day after surgery... Ive heard i need to do it right away before the scar fibers start to bind and cause depression as before. Wish me luck!!
Great site by the way Sarah!!
Post by: boafriend on June 07, 2012, 08:23:47 PM
Thanks
Post by: CaliSubcision on June 08, 2012, 07:51:18 AM
Post by: boafriend on June 08, 2012, 07:26:36 PM
CaliSubcision;3733 wrote: boa which suctioning device are u using and how much suction pressure is used?
I'm just using a wine pump (I have no idea what the pressure is). I suction 2 - 3 times a day.
I also wanted to ask...since suctioning I've noticed that the skin where my indented scars are (very up close) looks like there are many intermixed lines (what looks like new skin...kind of like many small creases). Is this a sign that the area is healing still? I read somewhere from Sarah that if dermastamped/suctioned areas are still dark or discolored, it's a sign that the area underneath is still healing...any ideas?
Post by: SarahVaughter on June 10, 2012, 07:09:15 AM
To Boafriend:
Small creases or any other unevenness in color or texture is totally normal after microneedling. The skin is being healed and renewed and until the process is completely finished, the skin can look different from normal.
Post by: Ayame on June 11, 2012, 03:03:21 PM
Basically i'm asking: is the Suction Method better or the Saline Method?
Post by: Arachne on June 12, 2012, 09:14:03 AM
Post by: Arachne on June 12, 2012, 09:21:11 AM
boafriend;3736 wrote: I'm just using a wine pump (I have no idea what the pressure is). I suction 2 - 3 times a day.
I also wanted to ask...since suctioning I've noticed that the skin where my indented scars are (very up close) looks like there are many intermixed lines (what looks like new skin...kind of like many small creases). Is this a sign that the area is healing still? I read somewhere from Sarah that if dermastamped/suctioned areas are still dark or discolored, it's a sign that the area underneath is still healing...any ideas?
Yes, I have noticed the exact same thing about the criss-crossed lines on the skin. As for the healing time, I find the dark areas have completely reverted to normal skin tone by the end of the second week in the three-week cycle.
Post by: Ayame on June 14, 2012, 03:55:08 AM
I want to try either the suction method OR the saline method, only i'm not sure yet wich one i want to choose.
I'm trying to compare them which each other right now...
They sound both like things that can be working for intendet acne scars.
At this moment, i'm actually leaning more towards the saline method. However, the saline method, i still think it's a little bit scary to do this at home with the needles,
but on the other side, there are quite a few people who did this at home and the diabetic gauges are so small. Also, there was a woman FINLEY (she isn't on this forum anymore these days) and she was really enthousiastic about them.
But still, i'm not sure about it, it's hard!
Post by: SarahVaughter on June 14, 2012, 04:18:49 PM
It serves the same purpose as the suction method - to stretch out the fibrotic bands that tether the scar down and make it indented and to trigger collagen production. It is injected straight after a subcision or needling.
http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/Saline-injections-for-acne-scars
By the way, Hyaluronic acid (Restylane) is also normally present in the body and the fillers from hyaluronic acid would also last mere hours. That is why the hyaluronic acid in the fillers is crosslinked, which makes it much longer lasting.
Post by: boafriend on June 23, 2012, 01:23:30 AM
I suctioned for 1 week after my last dermastamping session but stopped after 1 week because I couldn't deal with the redness (I was studying for finals and meeting with people to study too). After stopping I noticed (and asked Sarah) about what appeared to be criss cross marks in my stamped & suctioned area....pretty much what looked like new skin. I experienced very mild peeling afterwards...and then the dents I had looked like they have improved by a bit. Upon touch, the area definitely felt smoother and less indented. I was excited.
But about last week I noticed my dents looked like they were going back to normal. Touch wise, I felt like they dented in again. :( Am I delusional or is this really something?
Thanks
Post by: cesamaddict on June 23, 2012, 01:22:48 PM
Post by: SarahVaughter on June 26, 2012, 06:33:00 PM
http://www.owndoc.com/pdf/therapy-in-treatment-of-atrophic-acne-scars.pdf
But they performed the suctioning shortly after the subcision and subcision is a very aggressive procedure that takes many days to heal. I do not think it is necessary to produce bruises for the suctioning method to work (to release the fibers that tether the scar).
Post by: Sylvania on June 27, 2012, 11:46:42 AM
Single-needling a depressed scar vertically (''mini - subcision'') can defenitely help, especially if you add something like suctioning afterwards. But everyone's skin is different, so some people might not respond as well as others.
I have some depressed acne scars (rolling and boxcar ) and also want to try the subcision + suctioning treatment on myself, i’ll report back.
By the way, It might be interesting to tell that i did an treatment for my cellulite actually called the same: subcision.
They told me that the idea behind this treatment was to cut bands that were causing my dimples. It gave me around 70 % improvement (not kidding) and i’m thinking that if they added suctioning afterwards the treatment would have been even more effective… but are the cellulite bands (Septa was their name i thought) comparable with the fibrous acne bands?
In cellulite, the Septa surrounds fat cells in the fat layer of our skin to keep them in place, i believe, and the cellulite arises when the septa tighten down on the fat cells, due to things like certain genes, hormones and eating too much greasy things.
But why are there downward pulling bands in depressed (acne) scars then. I mean, why do they develop?
Post by: boafriend on June 29, 2012, 05:53:41 AM
I'm really down right now. I felt I was finally seeing improvement, and BAM - my scars went back to normal state.
Thanks so much.
Post by: SarahVaughter on June 30, 2012, 04:19:50 PM
http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/what-to-do-about-cellulite/
Scars are often tethered to the underlying structures. During the formation of a scar, everything is "glued together" by scar tissue. Later, during the maturation of the scar, the part of scar tissue that connects it to the underlying structures should be reabsorbed and the scar should be "freed" but it does not always happen.
When you for example injure yourself or when you have chronically inflamed acne, the primary goal of the body is to fix it and to fix it quickly and efficiently to prevent infections etc. Gluing everything together is probably the quickest way and our body is not concerned with appearance of the scar.
However, not every scar is tethered.
To Boafriend: You just have to be more patient. We have customers who have been struggling with acne scars for over a year and they eventually succeeded. It is not realistic to try suctioning once and immediately expect permanent results.
Post by: cj123 on July 02, 2012, 11:10:04 PM
They say to move the cups around on moist or wet skin instead of keeping it in one place. This is supposed to prevent the red marks that can happen when skin is suctioned. Reading what they say makes me more confident that it's not harmful to stretch facial skin. I haven't tried cupping yet because I was afraid the stretched skin would stay loose. These cups are made especially for the face.
Here's the link. http://www.ib3health.com/products/SuctionCupping/SiliconeFacialCup.asp
They have another cup set and they have a special pump for scars. This creates a large amount of pressure to draw skin up. I think this one sounds very interesting since it's made especially for use on scars.
http://www.ib3health.com/products/SuctionCupping/FacialCupping.asp
Post by: Ayame on July 03, 2012, 12:11:08 AM
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-internal-scar-tissue.htm
Post by: SarahVaughter on July 04, 2012, 05:35:37 PM
@Ayame:
Yes, I do mean an adhesion. Obviously, an adhesion after for example a C-section can cause serious problems whereas the adhesion in acne scars is just a cosmetic problem. Esthetically, if the scar adheres to the underlying structures, releasing it will improve the indentation.
Post by: Dewydewey on August 16, 2012, 04:04:30 PM
I just single needled a small depressed scar on my cheek today and will begin the suctioning method again. I see some mild improvement from when I used the derma stamp combined with suctioning. I have decided though to single needle the depressed scars (once a month), roll with my .5 mm twice a week, suction and see what results these give.....
What are your experiences and results?
Post by: jwaduveev on August 17, 2012, 09:10:38 AM
The PMD does a good job of pulling the skin up, and I can slide it around on my face so don't have to suction each scar individually. I targeted a couple of the deeper scars individually and was able to create a small hematoma, which I felt was beneficial based on the study. I think using the PMD may have have also extended the bruising period slightly, which I also feel good about because I feel more confident that the tethers are not quickly re-attaching. I started 24 hours after the subcision, made one pass the first day and then increased to 2 passes twice a day the second day and three passes three times a day the third day and onward. I plan to continue the suctioning for another week. Although that's slightly more aggressive than the study, I felt it was justified due to the suction power being lower than the professional machine used in the study.
Although it's too soon to tell the long-term outcome, at this point I'm seeing a 60 to 70 % improvement. Having spent thousands of dollars on a painful laser resurfacing with an extremely long recovery and some permanent discolorations but almost no improvement, so far, I'm thrilled!
Post by: jwaduveev on August 17, 2012, 09:23:25 AM
The PMD is small, lightweight, and easy to use. It fits comfortably in one hand, leaving the other hand free to hold the skin taught. It travels well, which was important to me as I was heading out on a two-week vacation shortly after the subcision.
Lastly, I have no connection to the company that makes the PMD, so my comments are not biased and represent my own personal experience. As Sarah frequently remains us, everyone's skin reacts differently...
Post by: SarahVaughter on August 18, 2012, 06:07:19 AM
Post by: mila on August 23, 2012, 09:47:10 PM
Anywho!I just brought a suction device from ebay like so:
(https://http://www.ebaypa.com/albums/20120005/sku028816.7.jpg)
and was wondering exactly How long I should hold the cup on the different sections of my face. It sucks up the skin really strongly in the dome and makes it round, but for how many seconds should I do this and how often in a session... kind of freaky to see my skin strech like that O_o... but anyway, thanks for any help!
Mila
Post by: SarahVaughter on August 24, 2012, 12:12:00 PM
"In the beginning of suction period, elevated lesions were not
suctioned until they became flat. On the first days, we used less
negative pressure; but in the subsequent sessions, depending on
the condition of scars, we could increase negative pressure (even
to maximum: )70 mmHg), length of time (not more than 4 s in
each pass) and the number of suctioning passes (even 8–12 passes)
per session. ‘Effective suctioning caused oedema and haemorrhages
in the subcised scars and led to ELEVATION OF DEPRESSING SCARS
ABOVE THE SKIN SURFACE’ (Fig. 1f,g)."
"high grade of improvement was mostly in patients in group A1 who had almost daily suctioning in the first week of suctioning period"
Post by: thistimeonly on August 25, 2012, 12:32:13 PM
Post by: SarahVaughter on August 25, 2012, 04:16:39 PM
Wait at least one week.
Post by: thistimeonly on August 31, 2012, 08:45:49 PM
http://www.skincentral.com/en/health-tips/airgent-acne-scars-treatment.html
It is basically fillers using Kinetic energy instead of needles but I will wait three weeks between stamping and the treatment.
Post by: mila on September 06, 2012, 12:33:49 AM
My question is, should we count 6 weeks (Im using the 2mm dermastamp) from the last session of stamping, or from the last day of suctioning? Since the brusing and light bleeding is recurrent with the suctioning? Thanks!
Mila
Post by: SarahVaughter on September 06, 2012, 03:15:49 PM
The good news is that the bruising from the suction may enhance the efficacy of microneedling.
Waiting six weeks is enough. Unless it takes really a long time for the bruises to subside.
How long do you stay red like this?
If you feel uncomfortable walking around with such large red area, stamp and suction a smaller area during your session. As soon as it heals, stamp and suction another small area.
Post by: mila on September 06, 2012, 09:33:54 PM
Post by: SarahVaughter on September 07, 2012, 04:57:30 AM
This is the approximate shape. We are working on making the needle handle more comfortably now, so the design isn't final yet.
It will be ready somewhere in January 2013 unfortunately.
This really is a major project for us. $5000,- for the mold and initial design, $15000,- for an initial order, and that excludes shipping and customs fees. All in all a $25000,- project but we will then be the only vendor with a single needle to perfectly treat many skin problems with. Our previous single needle did not stop exactly at the depth it had to - this one will.
(The needle body in this picture is in reality smaller than shown on a computer screen and the actual needle is still missing)
Post by: jwaduveev on September 07, 2012, 08:54:21 PM
Post by: SarahVaughter on September 08, 2012, 05:53:01 AM
(2 x magnification, in reality these needles are much smaller.)
Post by: SarahVaughter on November 16, 2012, 01:01:19 PM
Post by: SarahVaughter on January 02, 2013, 05:52:23 PM
http://shop.owndoc.com/product-info.php?singleneedles-pid172.html