Sarah Vaughter answers questions about OwnDoc products
Forums => Dermarolling / Microneedling => Topic started by: cesamaddictaol on May 10, 2012, 01:53:48 AM
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Hi Sarah,
I am a 28 year old Hispanic Male who has several acne scars from my teenage years of severe acne...My Acne is under control right now and has been for the past 6 years (except for blackheads on my nose). I've been using a 2.0 dermaroller with Emla cream for three sessions already (5 weeks apart between sessions). For the first session, I had no pre-treatment or after care (for example infadolin, Vit C, Copper Peptide). after the second session, I used Infadolin for two days (as my skin is oily) and copper peptides. I just did my third session and I used the Vitamin C serum that I made from your webshop for three days, rolled with my 2.0 dermaroller and used my 2.0 dermastamp on deep wrinkles and deep scars. and afterwards applied the copper peptide mask and about half an hour later, applied infadolin. Pretty much my face is evenly distributed when it comes to acne scars, to the point where my skin even looks scaly like a snake.
For the first two sessions, i was smoking heavily but I stopped smoking two weeks prior to this third dermarolling session to see if that made a difference. I haven' noticed much of a difference (except more even skin tone) and I dont know if there's anything else that I should be doing I take Vitamin C orally every day now for the past couple of weeks in hope that it will help.
Although I have very oily skin, I don't have much acne (besides Blackheads). How long should I use the infadolin after the dermaroller? 2 days? 4? 6? More?
Does smoking have a direct relation with the dermarolling? I've read somewhere that it can slow down the healing process. Is there anything else you'd suggest? Or should I continue waiting for good results? Thank you.
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Continue with your 2 mm dermaroller sessions and add the suctioning:
http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/Subcision-suction-method-for-acne-scars
Smoking has a negative effect on skin collagen so try to reduce it as much as possible.
In the future, you can also try a 1.5 or 2 mm dermastamp.
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Thank you for your response. I haven't smoked in a couple of weeks and I've just purchased some facial cupping products for the suctioning which I am very enthusiastic about, especially after reading your forum thread on suctioning. Would you recommend that instead of the dermaroller, that I use my 2.0 dermastamp all over my face? I know it will be a much longer process but I actually prefer the dermastamp over the roller. I find it much less uncomfortable stamping and definitely less painful. I will post pics and post more about my suctioning products when it arrives. Thank you again for your help..lol
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Both a 2 mm roller and a 2 mm dermastamp are effective for deep scars. A dermastamp is perhaps less painful (it has less needles) but much more laborious. You can combine the two in one session. Roll over the whole area with your roller and then stamp the deepest scars with either a 1.5 or a 2 mm dermastamp. A day or two later, start the suctioning.
You can also use just the dermastamp if you prefer.
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Thank you for all of your help. I've been suctioning for the past two days and I absolutely love the plumpness of my skin afterwards. When I woke up this morning I was in sort of a shock at the way my skin looked. I am very optimstic about it. Also, I just purchased some single needles from your webstore and I wanted to know if you think it's worth needling all the ice pick scars close to my nose in the above picture? I'm not even sure if they are ice pick scars or enlarged pores. I also purchased retin A from your webshop. I am very excited about everything.
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I've also started using a 0.5 Dermaroller twice a week, in between the 6 week 2.0mm rolling sessions
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The photo is slightly (20 to 40% enlarged) so the pores a bit less visible in reality. Certainly, do not needle all of them in one go. You can try to needle one, to see how it reacts because pores are unpredictable.
We have customers who claim needling helped their pores but there are not many successful cases:
http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/Needling-and-dermastamp&p=2288#post2288
Needling improves scars, however pores are not scars. They are ducts in the skin and that is a different issue.
I think you should concentrate on your scars because it is very probable they will improve with dermarolling/stamping and the suction. You look very handsome even with the scars though!
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Thank you for your gracious compliment. I just have one more question. Because of the large spread of scars throughout my face, do you think it's okay if instead of applying Infadolin (which I have) after roling that I instead place Retin-A? I can even apply retin A under the Infadolin. I don't mind the stinging for hours. When I first started rolling, I bought a facial lotion that had vitamin C in it and that stung for hours so I am aware of whats in store for me. I've also started using a 0.5 Dermaroller twice a week, in between the 6 week 2.0mm rolling sessions. Is that okay?
Note by Admin: We switched to a new forum and this posting, with the below picture that we edited with text, dropped during the migration:
"Thank you Sarah. I've started Rolling 4 months ago and can already see a difference. Below are 4 month progress pictures before and after"
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I had to make a new screen name because the only one wouldn't let me post any updates. As you can see from 4 month update picture, The Scars are starting to fill in. i am very happy with the Progress. I just ermarolled all over with a 2.0 dermaroller and a 2.0 dermastamp. I've started suctioning. As time goes on I will continue to post progress pictures. I encourage anyone who reads this to also post pictures to show everyone else that dermarolling DOES WORK.
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Sorry about that - Your old login may now work better, we changed something just now to try to fix it.
I do not think it is a good idea to apply the A-Ret to your whole face right after dermarolling. A-Ret (Retinoic acid) is basically a mild acid peel and it can irritate and dry the skin. You should start applying it as an experiment to just several of your scars right after dermarolling.
Yes, rolling with a 0.5 mm dermaroller in between your 2 mm roller sessions is perfectly OK and it is a good idea.
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Thank you very much, Cesamaddictaol, for your photos! We have received lots of feedback about the successful improvement of acne scars with our products but nobody sent us any before-and-after photos of acne scars (mainly due to the fact that almost nobody takes the "before" photos). So you are the first. Our customers did send us photos and you can see them on our website but none of them concerned acne scars.
I have posted this text some time ago on another forum posting about acne scars:
"Please remember to give us your feedback on your results. We get many emails from customers saying that dermarolling/dermastamping/needling improved their acne scars, usually after at least a year of monthly rolling sessions. Unfortunately, nobody sent us any before and after photos as of yet. About a year ago I told my husband that one day I would like to needle acne scars (he has just a few) on his forehead and photo-document the process of improvement. He faintly nodded (to get rid of me). Some days ago I took the single needle and tried to catch my husband who saw the needle and promptly ran away. He said: "no way I am going to go through such an ordeal just because you need a photo. Find yourself another victim". Sigh."
BTW haven’t you posted your photos also in the subcision-suction thread? We have recently moved our forum and the forum postings that were posted exactly at that time did not appear in the new forum.
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I'm not sure if I have but the most recent picture that I posted is the one that is a few comments above. I'm a photographer and I use something called a Ringflash which is very unforgiving to people with bad skin which is why I chose it to document my progress. Every picture I will post on here will be using that flash so that the lighting can be consistent. It is still a major work in progress though but I have had a lot of improvement. I have a question about suctioning. From what I read, I am supposed to cause light bruising is that correct? I'm thinking that suctioning will be more effective if I do it directly after rolling with the 0.5 mm roller during those 2 weeks of suctioning after the 2.0 session
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There is no cream in the world to heal acne scars....
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that's why the people on this forum have turned to Dermarollers and Sarah's great recommendations.
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Hi Sarah, I was reading a different post on this forum about someone describing their scars as being very shiny. Is that a huge indicator of scarred tissue? I ask because my face is completely shiny, even when I wipe rubbing alcohol on it. Do you think it'll be wise for me to use the 2.0 mm roller every 5 weeks and a 1.0 mm roller every week (as opposed to a 0.5 mm bi weekly)?
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also as a tip for people with oily skin, I put Milk of Magnesia on my face occasionally to give my skin a "normal" look so cover up the oil. It works great.
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Scars are usually not shiny except for some days or weeks right after the scabs fall off.
Scars need lots of effort to improve and trying various approaches is often necessary.
You can for example alternate the two methods you have suggested but only if you already have all the dermarollers. There is no need to buy a 1 mm dermaroller if you are already using a 2 mm and a 0.5 mm. It is however always useful to add a dermastamp and spot treat the scars.
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"Thank you Sarah. I've started Rolling 4 months ago and can already see a difference. Below are 4 month progress pictures before and after"
Thanks for the inspiring pictures. You have an incredible improvement. In fact you look like a male model in the second picture. Good job!
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Thank you for uour compliment. I have a long way to go but its coming along well. I wish more people would post pictures though. All of my friends and family are so tieed of me talking about the Dermaroller and this site. Im like a walking infomercial
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Just wanted to post a 10 month update. 2.0 dermaroller and 2.0 dermastamp, Single Needling and occasionally a 15% TCA Chemical Peel to clean up.
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Way to go cesamaddict! Great results!!! ;D
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THank you Mila. I'm trying..just like everyone on here..
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Because it is rare for people to go public with their improvements (and even rarer to make high-quality before-and-after pictures as well) and also because this kind of feedback is so valuable to us, as a thank-you for the time and effort and an incentive to others, we are offering cesamaddict products from our store.
Please email me about that, cesamaddict.
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Wow!! This is so encouraging!! Your skin looks so wonderful and what a great smile to show, too. I am so happy for you-Thank you for keeping us updated.
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Wow Cesamaddict! Your skin have improved immensely- thats a complete transformation!
And your pictures have encouraged me to carry on with my dermarolling/stamping sessions (although its been around 2months)!
What I wanted to know:
-Did your pores get smaller because you: single needled/dermastamped them?
-Do you still suction your scars?
-Do you suction the whole of your face, or just particular scarring?
I ask because...in your initial picture your skin have indentations and depression marks across the side of your face...and in your current picture these have significantly smoothed out...Do you think this was due to suctioning or simply because you dermarolled/stamped for so long?
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Thank you for your compliments. Regarding your questions
-Did your pores get smaller because you: single needled/dermastamped them?
Honestly I dont think my pore size has changed. I think now since it's winter, my skin is less oily, thus temporarily decreasing the size of my pores. However I do roll over them and stamp them thoroughly so it could be in fact that THAT's what it is. I also think there was some pigmentation there, which cleared up with my light chemical peels. Search the forums for information regarding peels. I'd say that if you're interested in doing THAT, then do lots and lots of research and start off with weaker peels such as Glycolic Acid (if you have dry-normal skin) or Salycic Acid (Oily Skin like Me) and then work your way up to LOW PERCENTAGE TCA (I haven't gone above 15%) I think this has helped a lot also and enhances the dermarolling.
-Do you still suction your scars? -Do you suction the whole of your face, or just particular scarring?
Yes I still suction my scars and I usually do everything except my forehead except a few spots as my forehead, for the most part, is indent-free. However, I haven't been very consistent with the suctioning mostly because sometimes it leaves light bruising and I work in an office where I can't walk around like that. However I do Roll and stamp thoroughly. I roll my entire face and then stamp my entire face. I think this amount of "trauma" to my face is what has helped me get to the point that I'm at now. What I also do, which Sarah DOES NOT suggest, is put Retin-A on my face DIRECTLY after dermarolling. Because I like the effect that chemical peels gives my skin, it's sorta like a 2 for 1. I get to dermaroll my skin AND get a chemical peel. I dermarolled on Tuesday and my skin is started peeling yesterday (Thursday) lightly. I honestly think that THAT has helped tremendously, the combination of the two. Some people on the forums report that there is too much stinging when placing Retin-A after dermarolling but it doesn't sting me AT ALL. My skin feels however it normally feels after dermarolling. I think it's helped the texture of my skin a lot. I'm nowhere near satisfied though. I expect even great results in mid-late 2013. However I think I've reached a turning point in my skin where I've noticed that more recently, my skin has really been healing well, frown lines have been "pushed out", skin tone is pretty even, etc. I plan on doing it forever (maybe not the 2.0mm but maybe a 1.5 or 1.0 after scarring has filled in) just to maintain a wrinkle free face. I figure I started young (I'm 28 years old) so I might as well keep it up.
If you've only been doing it for 2 months, it'll be a while before you start seeing significant results, depending on what you are treating but don't give up
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On this forum, I actually do recommend Tretinoin (A-Ret) application on scars right after microneedling:
"In case of stubborn, non responsive scars, I recommend needling them and apply the A-Ret immediately after"
"I do not recommend using A-Ret right after dermarolling because it is acidic and it stings when applied to the rolled skin but in some special cases such as stubborn scars and stretch marks, I do recommend it"
In our dermarolling instructions, I mention it as well:
"If you apply A-Ret right after rolling (recommended with stubborn scars and stretch marks or wrinkles) your skin will get even more red and it will sting. It may stay red for several days."
The problem is that significantly many customers have quite some strong reactions after Tretinoin application (redness, dryness) and this reaction will be much more sever if Tretinoin is applied right after microneedling so I have to be careful, recommending it.
Your skin seems to take Tretinoin application very well, you are lucky.
One has to moisturize a lot when using Tretinoin. For example, wet a cotton pad with tap water, add some almond oil and apply it to your face to offset the dryness triggered by Tretinoin.
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Cessamaddictaol,
Are you having the TCA peels done by a Dr/Esthetician or are you doing them yourself? Also are you doing the whole face or just cross sections? I have had Glycolic peels before but feel I need something stronger-my skin does not react well with Salicylic. Thanks!
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I do it myself. Do a patch test if you're interested and try a very low percentage. It is very traumatizing so be prepared to stay indoors. Do tons of online research before you do it.
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Two years ago my skin was in really bad shape. In this picture, I wanted to show everyone what needling can do to frown lines and such. I had been a heavy cigarette smoker for about 8 years when the first pic was taken. I've since quit and have been needling for about a year for the after pic. I encourage others to post your progress pictures as well. I apologize for the bad quality of the before picture but nonetheless, the difference is clearly visible.
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I wish I knew why some achieve incredible results with dermaneedling and some get no results.
Also, just like any other method, dermaneedling does not improve 100% of skin conditions in 100% of cases. From my own experience, the wrinkles above my upper lip and the wrinkles in between my eyebrows (the so called 11's) improved tremendously after regular dermaneedling, whereas my crows' feet have not responded almost at all. Which wrinkles or scars respond is very individual.
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Hey Cesar:
I am about to begin dermarolling/stamping.
I have noticed you have had amazing results and was wondering if you could give me some tips on your protocol.
How did you stamp (what sort of patter/technique) did you use on the scars? How Long was the needle?
Same question applies to the dermastamp.
Also what techniques did you use on your forehead scars, and also what needle and roller lengths did you use?
Thanks for any advice
Andy
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Hi Andy, I did everything accoring to Sarah's guidelines. I stamped all of my scars first with the Dermastamp before I roll. I do that because the scars are easier to see. I'm a bit aggressive with my stamping. I use a 2.0 mm stamp and roller. I'd stamp about 12 times for deep scars. I have a deeper scar on my forehead that I stamp a bit more since that one needs much more collagen to fill that scar. AFterwards I roll with with my 2.0 dermaroller about 12 times in each direction. Throughout the month, I use vitamin C and retin-a on alternate days.
THe only part that I've deivated outside of the recommendations is that I use Hyaluronic Acid instead of Infadolin because this allows me to use it for many more days and throughout the day as opposed to Infadolin which I can really only use in private because of it' greasy nature. I also chose HA because it's better for oily skin. Sarah sells HA with Copper Peptides in the webstore. I've been stamping for about a year and 3 months now and i'm pleased with the results. I still have acne scars but tehy are very very shallow except for my temples. My temples are taking longer to fill in than I would like.
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Hi Cesamaddict!
I have read your postings several times for tips on how to go about treating my acne scars. I'm also a former smoker and immediately noticed a much more "healthier" looking skin tone after quitting :) I am now working on trying to "fill in" a few box car and ice picks that are more shallow but stil annoy me quite a bit :(
If you would be so kind to answer a few questions for me would be awesome. Now that you've achieved such amazing improvements with your scars, how are you treating your shallower marks/scars? Are you still rolling then stamping and using Ret-A afterwards? How did you incorporate the TCA peels? I have both TCA (12.5%) and lactic acid (40%) that I'd also like to use to clean up my skin a bit during my treatment.
Sorry for all the questions but with the great results you've achieved I definitely want to learn as much as I can to achieve the same!
Thank you in adavance and please continue to post you are extremely encouraging :)
Happy Healing!
NoMoScars
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I havent changed my routine. I'm still rolling and stamping at 2.0. My temple areas still need big improvent but I am trying to be consistent. I still put the Retin A on afterwards. I haven't done the TCA in a while though because the past peels and use of the Retin A has pretty much left me very even toned. Ive never used the Lactic Acid peel but the TCA is great. You shouldnt use it if you haven't been pre treating with Retin A. Id also suggest to stick to just the Retin A for the time being since summer is here and you are more likely to have sun damage as compared to the other times of year. Also, chemical peels can be very traumatizing so you should maybe consider purchasing a 0.5 mm roller from the webshop to speed up cell turnover. I also find on days that I use the vitamin C serum that my skin is left looking very healthy and even toned.
It's been a long road for me but I'm still going at it. Patience is key. After a while, the time gets easier to deal with. Ill be posting updated pics soon
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Oh wow thank you for the quick response!
I've been meaning to add a 0.5mm to my arsenal of supplies. I'm going to go ahead and buy one and use it weekly in between my monthly treatments with the longer needles. Will also purchase the retin a to see if it'll help to fill in some of the scars a little. Will hold off on the peels for now since I never thought about sun damage, thanks for the tip.
Ok, I think I'm good for now. Btw I'm also documenting my progress and praying my scars will improve. I'm only 2 months in so I only have a few pics posted.
Will continue to look for your updates from time to time and thank you again. Have a great summer :)
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Hi Cesar! When you say that you roll 12 times in each direction specifically what does that mean? I know you are suppose to roll your face in a go down lift up move over repeat vertically and horizontally. Do you do the vertical rolling 12 times and the horizontal rolling 12 times? Do you use a numbing cream or just go without. This is my first time and I have acne scarring although not as severe as you, mine is really more on a few spots on my cheeks. I am going to do the stamp method along with it. What does your skin look like after you have stamped and rolled? Can you go out the day of or the next day without there being any redness or bloody spots? Does it cause bruising? Any information will be helpful. Thank you!
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Also what type of roller do you use the owndoc or the other? What size roller the narrow or wide one?
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The Owndoc, the wide one. Im getting ready to buy a dermajet though as soon as the US version is back in stock.
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16 month update.
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Thank you very much for you update. All I can say is WOW! Your effort was well worth it.
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These results are definitely a Wow! You wouldn't even know you ever had acne scars at all. Definitely encourages me to keep going on a couple of rather persistent scars. Those little *&^%& have now met their match!
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The time frame definitely gets easier as time passes. I remember the first time I stood in front of the mirror and thought to myself wow, this is going to take a year or more (which it has), it was very intimidating. As time went on however, it just became part of my skin regimen..All of the effort is worth it in the end. Just keep at it and you will definitely see results. Thank you for your compliment
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Way to go on such awesome improvement!!
I've improved some of my scars as well but wondering do you think that the skin ever "stops" improving? Or scars just fills in to a certain point and just stops :-\
I was reading another board on acne scars and came across this bit of disappointing information. But from the looks of your photos it appears that that info may not be 100% accurate and it totally depends on the individual.
I'm only around 5 months or so in to treatment but for results like yours I'll definitely continue to needle for a year or more or however long it takes ;)
Keep up the good work!
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Thanks for your compliment. I personally have been doing it now since February of 2012 which means I've been doing it for the past 20 months. I'm not exactly where I want it to be but it has improved greatly. I think it improves little by little each time you do it. Do I think it'll ever look "perfect", I don't know, but it will look much better. In certain angles in the light u can still see every scar that I have, but they are much flatter scars. If I were standing in front of someone talking to them in normal lighting, they may not notice them. It's the harsh light that exposes them mostly. I am still working on them myself but I don't plan on stopping rolling ever. I figure this way, the scars will eventually all look normal, and I'll keep my skin as wrinkle free and healthy as I possibly can.