instanttaneous indentations on skin

[Anna]

I read another thread titled ' stretchmarks on face' " and one guy on there is saying he's been getting these indents in his skin after dermarolling. Heres my question I personally have never heard of this before especially it being related to rolling, I'm wondering if this is a common thing and if it is is it permanent or do they go away? I've only rolled my face once and there hasn't been any issues thus far but if there's a chance that dermarolling causes this effect I will not be rolling again, because I'm not about to trade one problem in for another. Any insight on this Sarah?

[Anna]

I meant to say spontaneous indentations bur anywho I read and reread that thread and it appears that his indentations weren't related to the roller that's a relief however I wonder if the roller could cause that to happen

[SarahVaughter]

You are referring to this:

   https://http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/getting-stretchmarks-on-my-face/page3

   His skin problems turned our having nothing to do with dermarolling:

   "Just an update - turns out I have a form of discoid lupus, most likely triggered by immune changes induced by the vitamin a...."

   He had been taking high dosage of vit. A orally for a long time which is very dangerous and he is lucky to end up merely with skin problems:

   "I took the high-dose as recommended by Linda Page (holistic practitioner) to get rid of stubborn warts".

[Rollin]

I was the person making that thread. I still don't know what's wrong with me and I didn't do anything prior to dermarolling so it may either have been the dermaroller or the vitA-oitment that triggered something I dont know. It wasn't the very first time I rolled so it can't have been that or the ointment alone, I have other healthissues these days so I don't know. I did use the ointment at daytime after rolling maybe that was a mistake? I've seen two dermatologists now (saw second one today). I still have problems with my skin feeling like it's burning and stuff after 3 months. I haven't gotten more intendations however I think I'm not sure htough, it looks just as bad as it did after rolling. I also lost parts of my beard after that roll(?) but that came back after a month or so.

Just to clarify. The other person writing  there (a woman) got a diagnosis I guess, I haven't checked in cause I don't want to get bad anxiety from reading stuff... But if this doesn't get better soon I'll have no choice I guess.

If I don't apply anything at all whatsoever my skin looks ok sort-of but I can't apply anything (like any cream/ointment/oil) or my skin feels irritated and burnish. Same with being in the sun it feels like it's burning.

I do think the chances of getting a problem like this from dermarolling are extremely low, and if the dermaroller even had anything to do with this it was a trigger and not a cause in itself. I'm getting tested for allergies now but I don't think I have any, I think this is some autoimmune response sadly, I have other autoimmune issues like chronic inflammation in my noose (I use nasonex) and my eyes (the doc didn't know why I have this, but I have lots of small zores on my cornea = irritated eyes it comes and goes). I feel very depressed these days. I just hope it's something that you can treat that goes away, I can't do with yet another illness (and lupus oh my I don't even dare read up on that, heard it's not curable)

But again I think as long as you start off safely by for example rolling a smaller area without too much force, then using more force the next time etc. there shouldn't be a problem. And even if there were any problem the chances of getting whatever I'm suffering with is probably almost 0, I'm just one really really really really unlucky guy.

[Anna]

I'm sorry to hear that I hope you find out what s wrong and fix it soon. I rolled once so far and no problems whatsover I used the infadolan too. I also take ascorbic acid pills too since applying vitamin c doesn't work for me my skin is ultra sensitive. Maybe try taking that as well it could help. Best of luck to you

[kakalakingma]

Talk about a horror story. Good to know it was not the derma roller.

Anna, have you tried a non-acid form of vitamin C for topical use such as magnesium ascorbyl phosphate (Dermalogica Chroma White TRx Extreme C) or sodium ascorbyl phosphate (emerginC forte 20% vitamin C serum) or tetrahexldecyl ascorbate (SkinMedica Vitamin C + E Complex )? Just some suggestion for you to look up and consider! I know vitamin C serums are so expensive. But if you want the cheapest one I know made by a well known company (as of now) is Paula's Choice RESIST Super Antioxidant Concentrate (it has 5% tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate). i think you will better benefit from toppical non acidic vitamin C because of the direct contact and absorption you get. Plus, I heard that vitamin C helps with inflammatiion and even out skin tone. It may be of value for you to make your ultra sensitive skin look calmer.

[Update: the Skin Medica vitamin C serum actually contain both acidic and non acidic forms of vitamin C (ascorbic acid & ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate aka tetrahexyldecyl ascrobate) So I guess you shouldn't consider that one since can be too acidic for you. I don't know the pH of the product, sorry, but I doubt it is anywhere below 3.]

[Anna]

wow thanks for the info I'll look into those. Skinorganics has a vit c serum the line hasn't irritated my skin my the price for the C serum is ridiculous so iv ebeen holding off but I'll deffinitely look into the ones you suggested

[kakalakingma]

The Skin Organics Vitamin C serum has 15% tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate + idebenone (that hyped up antioxidant found in that pricey Prevage product). Looks like a hefty amount of vitamin C at a high pH - GOOD FIND! Not very often I find a loaded non acidic vitamin C serum

You know Anna, there are other antioxidant serums without vitamin C that you can also get benefits. Some people just aren't lucky with acidic stuff or vitamin C in general. Skin Organics has the Super Berry ORAC-6000 - Antioxidant Serum that is loaded with antioxidants. If have no grudge against drugstore brand, I think you should go consider Olay Regenerist Daily Regeneratng Serum, Fragrance Free. It has Matrixyl, Vitamin B3, and green tea. If you live in the US, and you are near a target, they sell a bottle for less than 20 dollars. OR you can buy cheap on amazon.com. Your choice! Free shipping on amazon.

So sorry for getting off topic on this thread. Lol.

[Update: there is another antioxidant concentrate serum with magnesium ascorbyl phosphate by Skin Actives called, CHAS. I tried to ask the maker the amount of vitamin C but she says it's proprietary. But you can be sure that you are getting loaded with plentiful antioxidants!]

[Anna]

I did try the regenerist cream it didn't work for me it turned my face red :/ I've tried a couple of things from skiorganics they're a fairly new company. The berry one you mention used to be called acai berry and they changed it into the one you mentioned above that's great stuff right now I'm using their vanilla acai I love it. I've also tried their face mist the cucumber one that one is awesome for when the weather is hot out. One of these days I'll break down and buy their vitamin c serum everything else I've had great results with I'm sure that one will work too. Thanks for your help =)

[kakalakingma]

Anna, I feel like you have such difficult skin! No offense, of course. Do you have rocasea? Have you tried hydrocortisone cream to deal with the redness? If you love organic skin care, there are two websites I know that specifically sell so call "organic and natural" products. They are Skin Bontanica & Apothica. Mind you a lot of the products are costy (at least to me).

[Anna]

yes I do! Lol no offence taken haha. I don't have rosacea it's just ridiculously sensitive that's all. I'll look into those too thank you for taking the time to respond (=

[SarahVaughter]

In a study concerning topical vit. C skin penetration, only the ascorbic acid form increased the levels of ascorbic acid in the skin. The other forms didn’t:

 

Topical L-ascorbic acid: percutaneous absorption studies.

  “Derivatives of ascorbic acid including magnesium ascorbyl phosphate, ascorbyl-6-palmitate, and dehydroascorbic acid did not increase skin levels of L-ascorbic acid.”

https://http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11207686

  The same study in detail:

https://http://www.nordicselfcare.com/pdf/1.09_percutaneousabsorption.pdf

  It doesn’t prove that it had no effect on collagen production since this was not studied but further studies are necessary to find out.

   Ascorbic acid pH:

A 5% solution in water has a pH of 2.2 to 2.5:

 https://http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/pharm/ascorbic.htm

  pH in water: pH 2.4 - 2.8 (2% aqueous):

https://http://www.inchem.org/documents/sids/sids/50817.html

[kakalakingma]

I have just finished reading the whole study. What an interesting study!!!

I would like to find out:

If Yorkshire Pig skin is appropriate and comparable to human skin in regards to epidermal and dermal layers and their permeability and available enzymes and such. Any draw back? I need to find information of the anatomy of the pig skin. Is there a human study on l-ascorbic acid absorption? The paper was caution in mentioning which studies tested on animal or human skin, which I think is helpful for the reader to be aware of.

What does it mean when the scientist wrote “Apparently the molecule must be un-ionized for precutaneous absorption to occur”? How can we determine that, say in DIY formulation? Does that got to do with hard water or soft water (minerals in water, right)?

The study did not test on tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate (very popular nowadays), I wonder if there is an absorption study on that. What about sodium ascorbyl phosphate, ascorbyl glucoside, ascorbyl glucosamine? There are so many to test on absorption potential. Don’t forget about conversion rate. I wish there is more studies on this. I love to know more. T_T

I think there are some people who cannot tolerate low pH vitamin C product, thus, they venture into more stabilized non acidic forms. Just an assumption, but I think stabilized form of vitamin C do offer antioxidant benefits and collagen product and all that jazz, just doesn't absorb into skin as well as l-ascorbic acid.

[SarahVaughter]

No.

   

  It has to do with ascorbic acid breaking down into positively and negatively charged parts. The higher the pH the more ionized it is.

   For our purpose it means that the pH of vit. C preparations has to be kept below 3.5 for the best absorption.

   You can use a dermaroller for product penetrating enhancement (short needles) to enhance the absorption of vit.C but if you apply it right after dermarolling, it will sting because it is acidic. If you apply it after dermarolling, add more water to vit. C serum to make it weaker.

   

    The question about a comparison of pig skin with human skin is a good one but I do not know yet the answer. I suppose that the fact these studies are made with pig skin suggests that they must be similar in relevant characteristics.

[kakalakingma]

SarahVaughter;1048 wrote: No.

   

  It has to do with ascorbic acid breaking down into positively and negatively charged parts. The higher the pH the more ionized it is.

   For our purpose it means that the pH of vit. C preparations has to be kept below 3.5 for the best absorption.

   You can use a dermaroller for product penetrating enhancement (short needles) to enhance the absorption of vit.C but if you apply it right after dermarolling, it will sting because it is acidic. If you apply it after dermarolling, add more water to vit. C serum to make it weaker.

   

    The question about a comparison of pig skin with human skin is a good one but I do not know yet the answer. I suppose that the fact these studies are made with pig skin suggests that they must be similar in relevant characteristics.

 

If my memory serve me correctly, I remember reading studies applying topicals like Vitamin C on rabbits and rats. So... which is better? pig, rat, or rabitt? what about keratinocyte cell cultures? Lol. I am just thinking... is it more expensive to use humans in study, is that why they lean towards animal models? Not enough volunteers? I have a feeling it is because it is more conveinent to get animals to test quickly and less consent forms to do. Maybe not though

[Update: I would love to see a comparative study on the absorption rate & capability between each animal model. But best is to test on human skin..besides, we're the one apply it on our skin, right?]